| Crown Employment (Nationality) Bill
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Mr. Dismore: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has recognised that there is potential for discrimination between classes of civil servant. One of my main concerns was that there could be a series of different types of oath. It is important to point out that the proposal is not an oath of allegiance to the Crown. Having said that, there is a series of potential anomalies about who should and should not swear some sort of oath of allegiance. Ms Karen Buck (Regent's Park and Kensington, North) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend accept that such a requirement should also be applied to foreign nationals working, for example, in the national health service or local government? Admittedly, they are not working for the Crown, as strictly defined, but they should be covered by the same expectations and affirmations of loyalty as set out in the Bill. Mr. Dismore: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Non-UK nationals deliver services on behalf of the state in the broadest sense, whether nationally or locally, but the rules would apply only to civil servants employed by central Government. UK nationals by birth do not have to take any oath of allegiance, and would not have to take the proposed oath if they worked for the civil service. However, someone naturalised to UK nationality would have to take an oath of allegiance. It is against the attempt to create an inclusive civil service to distinguish between the two classes, and it could create confusion. The new clause is not necessary. The civil service code, which applies to every civil servant, makes it clear that:
Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet) (Con): I shall speak only briefly, because I think that my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Hendon, posed the question to my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield exactly as I would have done. The hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck) asked to what extent the proposal should apply and whether it should apply to NHS employees as well as to Crown servants as defined by the Bill. However, there could be a form of discrimination if certain people who are allowed to Column Number: 12 serve the Crown have to take an oath or affirmation: either everyone or no one should be forced to do so. That is a probing point and I would be interested to hear the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield and the Minister.Mr. Alexander: The Government cannot accept the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield. He spoke with candour about some of the difficulties he faced and about the drafting changes. It is an important subject that is worth discussing, notwithstanding the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon has covered much of the ground that I shall cover. Section 4.1.1 of the civil service management code states:
Our debate has got to the nub of the issue. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield may believe that the aims that he wishes to achieve with his new clause have merit, but I am not convinced that the Bill is the statutory vehicle through which to achieve them. If he still wants all civil servants to take an oath or affirmation, regardless of nationality, perhaps he should consider another vehicle by which he may bring that about.
5 pmMr. Grieve: This has been an interesting debate, and it has been educational to follow hon. Members' reasoning, particularly that of the Minister. The Minister may be right to say that the Bill is not the vehicle with which to achieve my aims. Indeed, I had to change the wording of the new clause in a way in which I did not want because I was told that it might not be a satisfactory vehicle to deal with the issue of an oath or affirmation. That is unfortunate—I might return to the charge at a later stage in the Bill's proceedings—because the Bill, which, I accept, previously contained a host of anomalies, seeks a radical overhaul without considering the total picture. What the Minister proposes would mean that we would be deprived of the opportunity of looking at the total picture, while carrying out radical change. That is not entirely satisfactory. It would be equally unsatisfactory—I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Sir Sydney Chapman) on this—to require certain types of civil servants to make affirmations, while others make Column Number: 13 none. I accept that entirely. That is not how the new clause and new schedule were originally drafted. The words
The hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North spoke about the difference between a civil servant and someone who works for the NHS. I agree that there are anomalies, but we have a legal definition of who is a civil servant: someone who is a direct servant of the Crown. It is by virtue of that that certain responsibilities set out in the civil service code are spelled out so clearly. Public reassurance and understanding would be enhanced if the public thought that the Government's planned changes would lead to more diversity in the Column Number: 14 people employed without the previous restrictions—subject, of course, to ministerial ability to provide certain restrictions in some cases. It would greatly assist public reassurance if there were some affirmation when people are taken on. I shall be disappointed if it turns out to be impossible to deal with that in this Bill, because the opportunities for doing it hereafter may be somewhat limited until we have another Civil Service Act, and I cannot imagine that the Minister is about to tell us that such a weighty piece of legislation is going to land on our lap. I suspect that most politicians would think that such legislation might best be avoided if possible, as it would spend many hours in Committee. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn. Schedule 1 agreed to. The Chairman: I congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon on successfully piloting his Bill though Committee. Bill to be reported, without amendment.
Gale, Mr. Roger (Chairman) Alexander, Mr. Buck, Ms Chapman, Sir Sydney Dismore, Mr. Efford, Clive Foster, Mr. Michael Jabez Grieve, Mr. McDonagh, Siobhain Pound, Mr. Quinn, Lawrie
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| Prepared 7 June 2004 | |
