Gambling Bill

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Mr. Caborn: As the hon. Gentleman said, he and others have been asking for that reassurance for some time. The Government fully recognise that lotteries are a popular and important means of raising money for charities and other good causes. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are fully aware of the valid contribution made by lotteries to the successful running of hospices.

For society lotteries, the Bill in essence replicates the provisions of the Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976. Lotteries run solely for charitable purposes will be permitted. They can be run by licensed or small society lotteries, or by any person who is incidental to a non-commercial event, and promoted wholly for purposes other than for private gain.

Clause 14 is designed simply to define lotteries and to make provisions about payment to enter them and win prizes. It does not impose any additional limits on lotteries run by societies for charitable purposes. The powers in subsection (8) deal with the new arrangement that might be developed to circumvent the ban on large-scale commercial lotteries. The Government do not intend to use those powers to prevent lotteries run solely for charitable purposes from being promoted. Thus the Bill will continue to protect lotteries that are genuinely run to collect money for good causes such as hospices. I trust that that gives hon. Members the assurance that they seek.

Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The Minister used the phrase ''charitable purposes'' more than once. How broad is that term? I can think immediately of two fund-raising activities that are not charitable: one is the Labour party tote in Essex; the other is Colchester United lottery.

Mr. Caborn: Let me give the definition, because this was widely discussed in a document published this February, which said that small society lotteries registered with local authorities will have their registration automatically converted into registration under the schedule. I am happy to repeat that: the definition also covers non-commercial societies. That is key.

Mr. Foster: The Minister is very helpfully placing on the record his understanding of what will happen to the lotteries mentioned by the hon. Member for Surrey Heath. He will recall that there was much debate

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during consideration of the Licensing Bill some time ago about whether or not golf clubs would lose out. At that time, because of the uncertainty, he kindly produced a helpful document for all Members of Parliament to send to such clubs. I have received numerous representations about hospital and hospice lotteries, as, I suspect, have many others members of the Committee. Will the Minister agree to provide such a briefing note for us to use as a standard response to people who write to us?

Mr. Caborn: The answer is yes, although I do not want a repeat of the golf club briefing note. I had to write to every ruddy golf club in this country because the matter was being whipped up.

As I said, the document was published in February 2004, and I will ask my officials to pull out the relevant bit and stick it on the web. We will make sure that it is there, because we do not want to start a lot of hares running. We want to ensure that such lotteries understand that it is business as usual.

Mr. Hawkins: This has been a very helpful, albeit short, debate. The Minister's response to my points and to the very helpful points made by the hon. Members for Colchester (Bob Russell) and for Bath has been useful.

I have noticed that this Minister's Department—like Departments in general—seems to have adopted the policy that it is enough to put something on its website. I am not criticising the idea of putting information on the website, but I return to the request made by the hon. Member for Bath: could all hon. Members have a hard copy of whatever the Minister's officials will produce, because that is much easier for us than saying to hospice organisers throughout the country, ''You have got to look at the Department's website?'' Not all small hospices will necessarily be run by someone with the same IT capability as the Minister and his officials. Sometimes it is too easily forgotten by Departments that not everyone uses the internet in the way that Government officials do.

What the Minister has said is enormously helpful; I look forward to receiving the document, and I hope that it is a hard copy sent in the post to all hon. Members. There are certainly quite a few Government Members who say that they want hard copies of documents rather than having everything on the internet. A lot of our constituents feel that way, too. I understand that the Minister is saying that all existing lotteries will be protected; that is enormously helpful and will provide a lot of reassurance.

3.45 pm

Mr. Caborn: I was just thinking that I might send copies out with my Christmas cards. I do not want to go over the hon. Gentleman's head, but a copy was put in the Library in February. I hope that, besides visiting our website—a very good website—he will visit the Library, and he will get a double whammy.

Mr. Hawkins: I understand entirely.

Mr. Caborn: I was only joking.

Mr. Hawkins: I know. What was produced in February—the serious part of the Minister's

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response—is not what the Minister is talking about now, which is a response to the point that was made by the hon. Member for Bath. I am talking about something new. It would be helpful to have the hard copy because it would enable us to reassure people—[Interruption.] I am grateful that the Minister is confirming that. Having received helpful answers, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2 agreed to.

Clause 15

Betting and gaming

Mr. Moss: I beg to move amendment No. 91, in

    clause 15, page 7, line 30, at end insert

    'which shall include forecast competitions and fantasy football competitions.'.

The amendment is designed to seek clarification that the definition includes forecast and fantasy football competitions.

Mr. Caborn: The addition of forecast and fantasy football competitions by the amendment is unnecessary. Such competitions would ordinarily be treated as betting under the Bill because they fall under clause 11. Clause 15 deals with situations where a gambling transaction can be described as betting and gaming. It applies to all forms of betting. Where forecast or fantasy football competitions can be said to be gaming as well as betting, clause 15 will deal with the overlap without the need for the additional words in the amendment. As with any other overlap situation under clause 15, where there is an overlap, the transaction shall be treated as gaming. For those reasons, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

Mr. Moss: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Moss: Under the heading of ''Betting and gaming'', I want to raise several points on a broader footing that have been put to me by the Association of British Bookmakers. There is a number of products on offer in betting offices in addition to sports betting, and I have three examples. First, ''The 49s'' is a fixed-odds betting product that offers customers the ability to bet on a televised numbers draw. Secondly, ''Rapido'' involves customers in making a selection from 80 numbers at fixed odds. Winning numbers are generated by a random number generator and displayed in the shop on a television screen. Thirdly, the Irish lottery involves bookmakers offering fixed odds on the outcome of the Irish and other foreign lotteries. I am told that those products are extremely popular and generate significant betting revenue. Turnover is estimated at £300 million-plus per annum.

Under the present law, those are clearly defined as betting products. However, clause 15 does not make it

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clear whether that status is to be retained. It would be helpful if the Minister confirmed that it is not the Government's intention to change the categorisation of those products that appear in betting shops. It would also be helpful if we had some steer on that, either in clause stand part or at a future date when he has had a chance to consider the individual nature of those machines.

Mr. Caborn: As usual, my officials were very efficient. They told me the categories in which those board games will fall. I will read them out. ''The 49s'' is betting. Fixed-odds betting terminals are gaming. ''Rapido'' is gaming, and betting on the Irish lottery is betting. They will, therefore, fall under the definition of the Bill as they apply to betting and gaming.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 17

Lotteries and betting

Amendments made: No. 15, in

    clause 17, page 8, line 12, leave out 'entering' and insert 'participating in'.

No. 16, in

    clause 17, page 8, line 17, leave out 'entering' and insert 'participating in'.

No. 17, in

    'clause 17, page 8, line 26, leave out 'entering' and insert 'participating in'.—[Mr. Caborn.]

Clause 17, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 18

Non-commercial society

Amendment proposed: No. 108, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 30, after 'society', insert

    '(which shall include a corporation)'.—[Mr. Moss.]

The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 109, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 30, at end insert

    'or is converted to become'.

Amendment No. 190, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 32, at end insert 'or'.

Amendment No. 187, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 33, after 'supporting', insert 'any'.

Amendment No. 188, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 34, leave out

    'athletics or a cultural activity'.

Amendment No. 191, in

    clause 18, page 8, line 34, leave out from 'activity' to end of line 35.

Amendment No. 192, in

    clause 18, page 9, line 4, at end add—

    '(4) A race night at which films of past horseraces are shown in order to raise funds for a voluntary organisation shall be treated as an activity of a non-commercial society.'.

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