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Standing Committee B
Tuesday 12 October 2004
(Afternoon)
[Mr. Joe Benton in the Chair]
Schedule 1
Children's Commissioner
Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 119, in
2.30 pm
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following: Amendment No. 6, in
Amendment No. 191, in
schedule 1, page 36, line 19, at end insert—
'( ) The Secretary of State must take reasonable steps to involve—
(a) children from the areas which the commissioner serves; and
(b) such organisations concerned with children's rights and interests as he considers appropriate,
in the process of appointment of the Commissioner.'.
Amendment No. 120, in
Amendment No. 58, in
Amendment No. 192, in
Amendment No. 121, in
Amendment No. 124, in
Amendment No. 128, in
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New clause 19—Non-availability of the United Kingdom Youth Parliament—
'If in relation to any responsibility under this Part the United Kingdom Youth Parliament is not able to act, the Secretary of State shall nominate a similar body largely representative (by election) of and comprised of persons under the age of 18.'.
Mr. Hilton Dawson (Lancaster and Wyre) (Lab): As I was saying when this morning's sitting ended, I am well aware that my right hon. Friend the Minister has made interesting arrangements to involve young people in the selection of the Children's Commissioner and in other aspects of our work. I am sure that we shall hear more about that.
Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of something that he said this morning, which was that two representatives on the board to assist with appointing the Children's Commissioner were drawn from his constituency. I am sure that we welcome that. I wonder whether two representatives can be drawn from all the other constituencies represented in the House.
Mr. Dawson: I actually took care not to say that the two representatives were from my constituency. They are from the Lancaster and Wyre district; I do not think that either of them is from my constituency. What they are, as the hon. Gentleman will be interested to know, is young people who are very involved in the local youth council and in work with the national youth parliaments. They are very engaged in local and national issues involving children.
Mr. Turner: The serious point in my intervention was how the representatives were selected and who appointed them. Are people in other districts—or counties, where there are no districts—equally well represented?
Mr. Dawson: I have not the faintest idea how the representatives were selected, but I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Minister will tell us.
The Minister for Children, Young People and Families (Margaret Hodge): To help the Committee, let me say that the reference is to the new Children and Youth Board, which is a group of 25 young people who advise me. They were appointed through Children's Express, so they were not directly appointed by me or the Department. Children's Express will have to speak for itself as to how it went about the selection process, but the framework that we gave it was to establish a group that was truly representative of all interests. I have met the group only once, but its members are representative.
I remember a representative from the area represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson). She was a very articulate and strong woman who had had a lot of experience on a difficult estate on her patch and talked a lot about her life growing up there. There is representation in terms of age and gender, and there are some children with learning disabilities and one or two children who have been in the looked-after system.
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That is a pretty broad range, but the group is not representative and is not an elected body in the way that the United Kingdom Youth Parliament is.
The Chairman: Order. I was about to point out that that was a lengthy intervention.
Mr. Dawson: Moving swiftly on, I have a couple of brief points. This morning, the Minister mentioned the results of the HeadsUp forum consultation, which took place online. I took part in it and other hon. Members had the opportunity to do so in September. I believe that every member of the Committee has received a report of that consultation involving young people. One question for the Minister relates to whether she will be able to take into account their views about the Children's Commissioner in the work that she is undertaking with the Children and Youth Board. I found the consultation an invaluable experience, and a great deal of excellent information came from it. The process of an online consultation with children whereby they debate the issues before Parliament was a very interesting way to involve young people in the work of parliamentary democracy.
I shall offer only one quote from the consultation. It was said that
''the commissioner should understand that kids r gonna cum up with impossible ideas which may seem crazy but could be adapted to become possible''.
I hope that in a similar spirit my right hon. Friend will give a sympathetic ear to amendment No. 58, which is in my name and seeks to ensure that children and young people are involved not only in the appointment of a Children's Commissioner, but also in scrutinising and evaluating the work of that commissioner and in their reappointment after five years. As we know, the commissioner will be appointed for five years with a possibility of being reappointed for one further term, and children and young people should have a crucial role in deciding whether that person has done a good job and served their interests well.
Mrs. Annette L. Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): I shall speak briefly in support of amendments Nos. 6, 191, 58 and 192. Other hon. Members have admirably covered the point that the involvement of young people and children would give rise to more confidence in the appointment. In particular, I shall dwell on the perceptiveness that children and young people have in particular circumstances. I imagine that most of us have been involved in situations in which young people have played a part in an appointment procedure—for example, at a local youth club—and it is a very rewarding experience. What we are talking about would obviously be on a wider scale and I appreciate that the Minister has set up a special board. I ask her to give particular attention to these four amendments and I hope that something can be introduced to the Bill that would demonstrate the Government's
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commitment to the world at large. Not everybody knows of the good work that the Minister is doing behind the scenes.
Hywel Williams (Caernarfon) (PC): I shall speak briefly to amendments Nos. 192 and 191. First, regarding the appointment of the commissioner, as the amendments point out, it is vitally important to consult children from all areas for which the commissioner will have a remit—the Government intend the Children's Commissioner to have a remit in Wales. It is also important for the Government to consult children's organisations for their unique insights. There are a number of Welsh-based children's organisations that the Minister will be familiar with including Plant Yng Nghymru—Children in Wales. Amendments Nos. 119 and 6 and new clause 19 refer to the UK Youth Parliament as representing children. As I said, there are particular Welsh bodies, such as the Welsh Youth Parliament—the Minister will recall Funky Dragon—and Plant Yng Nghymru.
I shall also refer briefly to amendment No. 192 and the issue of scrutiny. It is vitally important that children are able to scrutinise the operation of the Children's Commissioner on a long-term basis. As a former Secretary of State for Wales said in respect of devolution, it is a process, not an event. Certainly, the work of the commissioner will be a process, not a one-off event. I emphasise two points: the need to scrutinise as a long-term measure and to consult properly with children in Wales.
Margaret Hodge: I shall deal first with the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) about the UK Youth Parliament. We have probably all worked with the UK Youth Parliament and find it very invigorating and challenging to respond to the issues raised. The Government recognise it as a good organisation that encourages civic responsibility and engagement by young people. Hon. Members will be pleased to know that we support it not only with an annual sum of money to help to keep it going but, more recently, I have identified additional resources to help to implement some of the recommendations from the Office for Public Management's review to ensure that that parliament is more representative of young people. We were able to grant extra money to help it to implement those recommendations.
I hope that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight will accept that many other organisations represent young people. Off the top of my head, I can think of the British Youth Council, the Carnegie Young People Initiative, the National Youth Agency and a number of children's organisations such as the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and Barnardo's. All would purport, in some way or another, to represent young people's views. The hon. Gentleman frowns at me a little, but I believe that it would be invidious to select one young persons' organisation over another. That is always the difficulty in finding a representative body to ensure that young people's interests are properly reflected in our decision-making processes.
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The main purport behind many of the amendments is to question whether we are involving children and young people in the appointment of our first commissioner. I can assure the Committee that we are. I have already described the Children and Youth Board that we have established and with which I have had one meeting. We intend to support its training so that it can participate in the process of determining the job description and help us to select the first Children's Commissioner.
I may be able to help the hon. Gentleman on another point. In my long intervention, I did not get time to say that two or three members of the Children and Youth Board are also members of the UKYP. I am sure that he will welcome that cross-representation.
Amendment No. 6, tabled by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and others, proposes to include something to reflect the involvement of children and young people in the appointment of the Children's Commissioner. I listened to the argument and have some sympathy with the idea. As always with legal drafting, there are a few problems with the precise wording. However, I hope that he will bear with me and that we can table an amendment on Report to ensure that we include in the Bill a provision for the involvement of children and young people in the appointment. All Committee members will welcome that.
I should tell the Committee something about the process of the appointment. As ever, it will be informed by guidance from the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. Although I said in an aside that the Secretary of State or I could be a member of the appointing panel if we so wished, we have chosen not to do that, because we believe that that could be seen as interfering with the independence of the appointment of the commissioner. We will not be engaged in the appointment, which will be conducted under the guidance I mentioned. I hope that we will draw together a group of people who reflect the appropriate interests to be responsible for that appointment, taking people from both the non-statutory sector and the civil service and engaging children and young people.
To give some comfort to the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams), I can tell him that the board that advises me has two representatives from Wales out of the 25, which is proportionate and appropriate. One of them is also a member of Funky Dragon, and I gather that the other one is considering whether to join Funky Dragon. I hope that that deals with the issues of appointment.
There are also a couple of amendments on the scrutiny and accountability of the commissioner. In a sense, the discussion that we had this morning about promoting the awareness of the interests and concerns of children was on the wording to reflect how important the Government feel it is for the commissioner to engage with children and young people in all his work. I have a lot of sympathy for the spirit of what the amendments are designed to achieve, but the problem is with the practicalities of establishing how such a system of accountability to
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children and young people could be established, who they would be and how their appropriateness and legitimacy as an accountable group of young people could be justified.
2.45 pm
I share with the Committee that concern: at my first meeting with the Children and Youth Board, which was selected by Children's Express, most of the young people were 16 or 17-year olds—among the older age group. We know that the years are very fast-changing in a child's or a young person's life; for example, attitudes to school among 16 and 17-year-olds are different from those among 10, 11 and 12-year-olds. A discussion about our extended schools policy would have a different content if we were to consult 16-year-olds as opposed to 12-year-olds. There is always a worry at the back of one's mind when listening to a group of children and young people that it is not reflecting the whole group. That is why I have difficulty with the precise amendments, but I hope that I can provide comfort for both hon. Members, because I share the spirit of them.
The accountability will come through us in Parliament. The commissioner will be obliged to place a report annually before Parliament. I hope that the report will be taken seriously by the appropriate Select Committee, which at this point will be the Education and Skills Committee. I hope that it will call the commissioner to account and, as part of that process, question children as to whether the commissioner has sufficiently fulfilled his or her functions in responding to children's interests and listening to their needs. I hope that, having heard what I have said on the subject, both hon. Members will withdraw their amendments about that scrutiny. I hope, too, that I can provide comfort to all other hon. Members about how we shall set about appointing the commissioner by assuring them that on Report I shall table an amendment that involves children and young people in the appointment process.
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