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Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I, too, am not sure that this is the right place in the Bill to discuss the matter, nor am I sure that the NDA's responsibilities should extend as far as that. However, the hon. Member for Lewes raises an important point. I will be glad to hear what the Minister has to say about the general principle of someone, somewhere, ensuring that people who operate nuclear sites make adequate provision for the future. It is an unusual industry, in so far as the running and revenue costs while generation is taking place are not the whole story. I therefore support the principle of the amendment, and look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say on the matter.
Mr. Timms: I am rather puzzled by the amendment, because it seems to me that whereas the hon. Member for Lewes has argued consistently during the Committee's discussions that there should be as wide a distance as possible between the NDA and private sector operators, he is now promoting, through the amendment, a more intimate relationship between them than is in the interests of the cause for which he argues.
Information on provisions made against clean-up will have to be included in the accounts and annual reports of any private sector operator. I echo the point made by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury that the NDA will not have the requisite financial expertise to analyse those and to take a view on whether a third party, with which it has no connection, will be able to meet its decommissioning and clean-up obligations. Moreover, we would not want the NDA to commit time and resources to doing that, because its clear focus should be on decommissioning and clean-up. We do not want the NDA to be distracted by having to build up a capability for monitoring private sector operators.
If there were any prospect of a private sector operator not being able to discharge its liabilities, the Government would have to make a judgment on the extent of any shortfall as that arose. Ministers, rather than the NDA, would be responsible for doing that, and for taking a view on what, if anything, it would be appropriate or necessary for the Government to take on. They would do that in full recognition of the financial implications.
Norman Baker: I tend to agree that the NDA is not the appropriate body to do that, but it was a vehicle on which to raise the point, as the Minister recognises. However, can the Minister assure me that there is a system in place by which Ministers would monitor any
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difficulties as they occurred, rather than only recognising a problem when it has manifested itself significantly?
Mr. Timms: As I said, the information on which that judgment could be based would be in the accounts and annual report. That does not exclude something startling happening suddenly. One could consider what happened to British Energy as an example of that although, as the hon. Gentleman knows, we are going through a restructuring of British Energy, which I hope will enable it to meet all its obligations. However, the NDA should not be taking on responsibility for monitoring that area; I believe that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that. The NDA may be a source of advice on the costs involved in the clean-up of a particular site, and clause 10 of the Bill provides for it to be able to do that.
Norman Baker: I am grateful for the opportunity to raise the issue and satisfied that the Minister recognises its importance and has addressed it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Clause 17
Annual reports
Norman Baker: I beg to move amendment No. 156, in
clause 17, page 15, line 24, after 'State', insert
'and to the Scottish Ministers'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment No. 155, in
clause 17, page 15, line 27, leave out subsection (2).
Norman Baker: These amendments would make the modest change of involving Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament more comprehensively. Scottish Ministers have an interest in how the NDA operates, discharges its responsibilities and carries out its functions, not only when a matter relates directly to Scotland, so that they can form an overall view of the NDA's performance. To make an overall assessment of the NDA, Scottish Ministers need fuller access to material. That is the purpose of the amendments in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell).
Mr. Timms: If the NDA's report contains anything relating to its responsibilities as set out in clauses 9(2) or 9(3), which deal with the handling of devolved matters, the NDA must send a copy to Scottish Ministers as well as to the Secretary of State. Scottish Ministers must then lay the report before the Scottish Parliament. If the report does not contain anything relating to what is set out in subsections (2) or (3), that requirement does not apply. The effect of clause 9 on Scottish sites, such as Dounreay, is that they would
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have to be cleared of all hazardous materials stored on the site. Scottish Ministers would not automatically receive a copy only if clean-up was virtually complete, therefore it would not have to be laid before the Scottish Parliament.
Documents are laid before Parliament or the Scottish Parliament only when they have a clear interest in them. The amendment would mean that every NDA report would have to be laid before the Scottish Parliament by Scottish Ministers regardless of whether they have an interest in it. That would be unnecessary. If Scottish Ministers were not formally sent a copy of the report by the NDA, they would still be able to see copies of it. However, the requirement to lay the report applies only if there is a Scottish interest.
Norman Baker: The Minister is telling me what I know to be the Government's policy; they have adopted that position on other legislation. In that sense it is consistent. My point was that Scottish Ministers might have a wider interest in the NDA's operation, even if a report does not relate directly to Scotland. The way that the NDA discharges its responsibilities in England and Wales affects the allocation of resources, time and effort to Scottish matters. That is why it is important to include Scottish Ministers. However, I have had my say so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Norman Baker: I beg to move amendment No. 158, in
clause 17, page 16, line 24, after 'Parliament', insert 'without undue delay'.
The amendment would add the words ''without undue delay'' to subsection (6). That would emphasis a point made by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury about the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. To fulfil that duty, Parliament should have access to documents as soon as possible rather than when the Secretary of State gets round to it. The amendment is an attempt to emphasise the need for parliamentary scrutiny so I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to it.
Mr. Timms: Unfortunately, the amendment would have exactly the opposite effect to the one that the hon. Gentleman argues for. The convention is that the Secretary of State lays reports before Parliament not when she gets round to it, but as soon as possible after she receives them. The wording of the amendment, which specifies ''without undue delay'', would imply that there could be an acceptable or due delay in the Secretary of State laying the NDA's report before Parliament. That is clearly not what the hon. Gentleman would want, and on that basis I hope he will quickly withdraw his amendment.
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Norman Baker: Far be it from me to load the scales even further on the side of the Government against Parliament. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Robertson: I thank the Minister for his private advice on amendment No. 6, which I shall not seek to move.
Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 19
Duties to operate installations and provide treatment etc.
Norman Baker: I beg to move amendment No. 149, in
clause 19, page 17, line 35, at end insert
'to ensure minimal adverse impact upon the environment'.
I would like to spell out the requirements in subsection (2)(c), which relate to the management of the land. My point is a sort of return to the argument we had about the principal duty earlier. The Minister may say that he anticipates my comments, so I shall anticipate his instead. He may say that the general and specific duties also mentioned in that subsection imply what the amendment specifies, and that there is a general duty to ensure minimal adverse impact on the environment. I would argue, however, for the importance of that being clearly understood. It is helpful to emphasise the importance of minimising the adverse impact on the environment by spelling it out in the Bill.
Mr. Timms: The hon. Gentleman is right; there is already a clear requirement on the NDA to take account of environmental concerns. The problem in this case, however, goes further than that. As in our earlier debate, the amendment would cut across the well-established lines of regulatory responsibility by giving the NDA a duty to ensure or deliver something that is the proper responsibility of someone else; namely, the nuclear regulators.
Obviously, the NDA will have to work within the existing regulatory framework and work closely with the regulators. Clause 12 recognises that by placing a duty on the NDA to have particular regard to the need to safeguard the environment. My officials, with the support of the nuclear regulators, have been drafting a memorandum of understanding that will be agreed between the NDA and each of the regulators, which will set out the basis of their working relationships.
The responsibility for complying with environmental regulation must rest with the person with control of a nuclear site, installation or facility. The responsibility to enforce such regulations must rest with the regulators. It is important that the Bill does not change that framework, and I fear that the amendment would do that. It would interpose the NDA into the existing regulatory arrangements in a way that would create uncertainty and undermine
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their effectiveness. I am confident that the independent regulators can deliver the outcome that the hon. Member for Lewes seeks—he has already paid tribute to those involved in the matter—through their commitment and expertise in enforcing the environmental regulations. I hope that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
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