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Dr. Desmond Turner (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab): I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary a quick question while we are discussing this clause, which sets out the NDA's duties and responsibilities. In respect of the nuclear liabilities that were publicly created, and given that the NDA will be publicly funded to carry out its role, will he give a brief exposition of the Government's position on what would be the case were there to be a future generation of nuclear power stations that would presumably be privately funded? Would the private developers of nuclear power stations also have to fund privately their nuclear decommissioning liabilities?
Nigel Griffiths: I shall reply to questions on the clause in the order that they were asked. The hon. Member for Vale of York asked about decommissioning policy and consultation. The review is under way, but it has not yet been concluded. The NDA needs to take account of it as the relevant Government policy.
It is unlikely that the NDA would have a role in MOD sites while there is still a defence interest, but as and when MOD interest in a sites ceases, it would make sense for the clean-up to be secured by the MOD itself. In Scotland and the UK, Ministers must agree that the Secretary of State acts on behalf of Her Majesty's Government in this matter, but the dialogue is very open and healthy between the Scottish Executive and the UK Government.
The hon. Lady almost got on to my Christmas card list with her mention of Morningside, which has a keen interest in the nuclear industry. We are grateful for the work being done in Morningside, through which waste from Torness is transported to Sellafield. It passes within a couple of hundred yards of my back door at Newington, and I am pleased that the freight line is kept up to passenger standard to secure safety there.
Unusually, the hon. Lady blotted her copybook when she called for more regulations, and for the designated directions to be discussed by the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The documents are technical; they specify what the NDA is being given designated responsibility for, and we do not intend
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that they should be over-bureaucratised and debated in the way that the hon. Lady suggested. I am keen to have fewer regulations, not more.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) raised an important issue. I shall ensure that he receives a reply, and that copies are sent to other members of the Committee.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 7
Additional responsibilities under designating directions
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Miss McIntosh: I will be brief. I am very disappointed with the Under-Secretary's response and, particularly, the news that I will not be on his Christmas card list. I thought recognition of the fact that he was the Member for Morningside would have deserved that.
Conservative Members recognise the huge importance of scrutinising legislation. When a Bill calls for regulations to be laid before the House, it merely is an opportunity to inform the House and, possibly, to gain support for what the Government are doing.
The clause relates to additional responsibilities under designating directions. Subsection (2)(a) refers to ''research facilities'' and paragraph (2)(d) refers to
''facilities of any description situated in or on such other land.''
I understood that the Bill applies only to Crown land. Can the Under-Secretary confirm that all the land to which the clause applies is also Crown land or will there be circumstances in which land owned by other landowners may come into the equation?
The Under-Secretary mentioned the transporting of waste from Torness to Sellafield and through his constituency. Will the additional responsibilities under the clause cover such transport? In the responses to the consultation documents, concern was expressed about transport and the difficulties that operators experienced because of the absence of a management policy, particularly for intermediate level waste. Other concerns were expressed about the need for solid waste to be stored on site.
Could the Under-Secretary confirm that the additional responsibilities of the NDA will include the storage and transport of waste? One respondent to the Government's consultation exercise proposed that the Scottish Parliament should approve decommissioning policy in Scotland and said that there should be no movement of radioactive waste across the England-Scotland border. Does the Under-Secretary agree with those views or does he think that there should be free movement?
Nigel Griffiths: I refer the hon. Lady back to clauses 6(4)(e) and 8(5)(e), which make it clear that the NDA will have the skills and expertise to manage clean-up
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operations on publicly owned land. Those two clauses allow for private land to be similarly treated when the private sector operator concerned consents. It is inconceivable that the operator would not consent. Clause 7(2) limits the land and facilities under consideration to that owned or occupied by the person with control of a principal nuclear site. That sets the extent of the powers.
In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown, the clean-up of private sector nuclear sites is the financial responsibility of the operator concerned. It is possible for the NDA to be given responsibility for securing the clean-up of private sector sites, but the costs would continue to be borne by the private sector itself.
Finally, I can tell the hon. Member for Vale of York that it would not be our intention to see the nuclear waste going to the world-class facility at Sellafield from the Scottish stations to be held up at either Carstairs or the border while securing certification. Only someone who had not thought through the consequences of this serious matter would put forward such a proposal.
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As far as I know, there is no proposal for Scotland to have an independent facility for safely disposing of expended nuclear fuel. There is common agreement on that among the Scottish Executive, the Government and anyone with a sensible point of view.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 8
Supplemental provisions of designating directions
Norman Baker: I beg to move amendment No. 84, in
clause 8, page 6, line 14, leave out 'may' and insert 'will'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
No. 85, in
No. 116, in
clause 13, page 11, line 35, leave out 'may' and insert 'will'.
No. 117, in
No. 118, in
clause 13, page 11, line 41, leave out subsection (4).
No. 99, in
clause 24, page 22, line 42, at end insert—
'(4A) In the case of a designated installation, site or facility where the person in control is not one contained in subsection (2), the NDA shall carry out an assessment of the ability of the person in control to cover the costs of the decommissioning and clean-up work, which the NDA considers necessary due to nuclear
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contamination caused by the activities of that company, and present such an analysis to the Secretary of State, and the NDA, following consultation with the Secretary of State, shall then determine how the costs of the decommissioning and clean-up work shall be covered.'.
Norman Baker: We have established that the NDA can take responsibility for the liabilities that arise from British Energy—that has become clear from our discussion on the group of amendments that included amendment No. 78. In response to an intervention from my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown, the Under-Secretary said that the private sector would bear the costs of any clean-up. However, he said to me that we must give the NDA power to deal with the private sector because the Government are the body of last resort in the interests of security and the environment. We would all agree with that, so there is a conflict between the last-resort position that the Under-Secretary described to me and the categorical assurance that he gave to the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown.
Happily, the amendments in this group would help the Under-Secretary. Clause 8(2) refers to:
''A direction giving the NDA responsibilities in relation to an installation'',
including one in which
''the NDA is to have a financial responsibility under section 24''.
Under those circumstances, the direction ''may''—not will—
''require the person with control of the installation, site or facility''—
that could be British Energy or another private sector operator—
''to make payments to the Secretary of State.''
If the Under-Secretary genuinely intends the private sector to bear the costs of the clean-up, I can help him because amendment No. 84 would replace ''may'' with ''will''. That would absolutely clarify the matter. In addition to that, amendment No. 85 would add the phrase
''commensurate with an estimate of the financial liability being adopted by the NDA'',
which is exactly what the Under-Secretary is saying.
Mr. Weir: Is there not a problem that British Energy has had to be bailed out to the tune of many millions of pounds because it is uneconomic? What guarantee do we have that any future private sector operator will be able to make payments, unless there are segregated funds from the outset? Are we not giving out the ultimate blank cheque? The Government or the NDA will have to pick up the bill if any private operator is in the same position as British Energy was before the Government pledged money to it.
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