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Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire) (Con): Can the Minister assure us that that secondary legislation will be amendable?

Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman is well aware of the practices and procedures of the House. He was not here
 
25 May 2004 : Column 1476
 
earlier, when another relevant issue was raised. We do not intend that there should be a gap between the coming into force of secondary legislation and the operation of the scheme for legal recognition.

Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. To help the House, can you clarify that the procedure just referred to the Minister means that secondary legislation is not amendable when it comes back to the House for consideration?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am anxious not to be drawn into the technicalities, and that is a point of debate for the Minister to answer.

Mr. Lammy: Many hon. Members have referred to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, whose members did not accept the James Dingemans opinion across the board. They were, however, concerned about the conscientious objection provision, but went on to say:

"such provision could also be made by the Secretary of State by order, in exercise of the power in clause 22(5)".

Mr. Drew: My hon. Friend will recall that I asked him to commit himself to writing to hon. Members about the introduction of secondary legislation so that we have a clear timetable. We need to know that secondary legislation will be introduced as soon as he has communicated with the Churches so that we have provisions in law at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. Lammy: As I told the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin), there will be no gap between secondary legislation and the gender recognition scheme, but it is right that we are sensitive to the wishes of religious communities and continue to talk with them to establish specific exemptions. Simply seeking to impose section 13 of the Human Rights Act on the Bill will not create the targeted approach that we are seeking. We continue to work with religious organisations, but I cannot recommend that the House accept the new clause.

2.45 pm

Mr. Leigh: It is my duty to conclude our excellent debate. First, the matters in amendment No. 1 are very sensitive indeed and concern conversations between clergymen about candidates for marriage and ordination. There is probably a broad consensus across the House that those conversations have to be protected and the Minister has given various undertakings on secondary legislation which, as was made clear in an intervention, may not be as satisfactory as including a provision in the Bill. None the less, I accept what he said in good faith and shall not press the amendment further.

I wish, however, to press new clause 1 to a vote. We have entered a moral maze and are dealing with difficult issues. People have spoken with great conviction, passion and sensitivity on both sides of the argument. There are broadly two cases against my new clause. One is absolutist—not made by the Minister, incidentally—and asserts that it is wrong for Church communities to remain outwith the general will of the House. They cannot insulate themselves, however strong their opinions.
 
25 May 2004 : Column 1477
 

Another view, expressed by the Minister, was that my new clause was not necessary because it simply replicates the words of section 13 of the Human Rights Act, so we can rely on that provision. However, to counter his argument, there is controversy among lawyers about whether we can rely on it. We have heard Dingemans's opinion, which is not, I accept, supported by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, so there is a dispute. That underlines my point that there is fertile ground for litigation.

In conclusion, I am not asking anybody in the House to accept what the Church communities say or agree with their views. In a free society, however, such communities should regulate their own affairs and have the right to conduct them according to their deeply held religious beliefs. The House should not impose its views on them, so we need the protection of new clause 1, which I shall press to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 104, Noes 276.

Division No. 187 [2:47 pm


AYES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Doughty, Sue
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Ewing, Annabelle
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Forth, rh Eric
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hancock, Mike
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, rh Michael
Keetch, Paul
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Shepherd, Richard
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tredinnick, David
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Wilkinson, John
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Andrew Selous and
Chris Grayling


NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Bennett, Andrew
Bercow, John
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Malcolm
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, rh Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Holmes, Paul
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Keeble, Ms Sally
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, rh Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, rh Peter
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Diana
Owen, Albert
Page, Richard
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Southworth, Helen
Squire, Rachel
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Gillian Merron and
Mr. John Heppell


Question accordingly negatived.

 
25 May 2004 : Column 1480
 

New Clause 2

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