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Mr. Field: As we both come from Merseyside, I am always loth to disagree with my hon. Friend, but I am afraid that I do. The Government have not put any of their money into the scheme. Instead, they have put some of our workers' money into it. So they are using taxpayers' money. It is wonderful that they have made a move to start the fund at £400 million, but it is not their money: it is our constituents' money. Our constituents are also contributing to a pension scheme which, thanks to the Bill, will now be protected not only to a large extent, but for the first time. That is great.
 
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I would love to see the Pauline conversion of this country's financial institutions, but although I hope that I have a long life ahead of me, I do not think that I will live long enough to see that. We have to get other sources of funding, before the general election, if we are to avoid the disgust and hatred of many of our constituents. It is a great start, but in no way are the funds sufficient.

I hope that the Minister will tell us that the Government will find Government time for the Balance Charitable Foundation for Unclaimed Assets Bill. The hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) was right to quote the Red Book. The original Bill for winding up pensions stated that we should pay for deficits by using unclaimed assets. The Chancellor moved those unclaimed assets to a new foundation, the Balance Foundation. That Bill has all-party support. The first charge on that new foundation should be to pay these pensions.

Although it is a challenge for the Government, it is also a challenge for the Opposition. They have said that they support using the huge resources in unclaimed assets to ensure that we do not run amok yet again with people's hopes and expectations of a good payout. I put it to the hon. Member for Havant that if the Government do not find time in their programme to ensure that the Bill on unclaimed assets gets to the statute book, will the Opposition attempt to find a way to adapt the procedure of the House? Instead of having a rant from them—whatever the rant of the week might be—perhaps we could use one of their Supply days to have the Second Reading of the Bill to push it on its way.

Mr. Willetts: The right hon. Gentleman asks me a specific question. We have considered that idea, and it is an ingenious suggestion. It is my understanding, however, that such a debate would appear to be a Second Reading, but it would not have any legal force in practice. It would not be a real Second Reading, but a copy. Although it would be an interesting way to ensure that that important matter is debated, sadly it would not help his Bill on its way. However, it would be an opportunity for us to show yet again how much we support his particular idea.

Mr. Field: If the Opposition spoke more to the Clerks, they might find that the motion on the Order Paper would come very close to a Second Reading motion. More importantly, it would flush everyone out because we would have a vote on whether hon. Members give that priority to unclaimed assets. I leave that with him, as I leave it with my hon. Friend the Minister.

I support the Liberal Democrat amendment (c). It is immensely important that at this stage of the debate, when the ink is not yet dry on the Government's new clause, we apply as much wisdom as possible to determining how we can protect as many people as possible. Those people have done what every Government told them to do—to save and be independent in their retirement—and thought that they were doing the right thing. They have found, however, through no fault of their own, that future wickedly grabbed from them. We cannot let them down.

Bob Spink: Does the right hon. and highly respected Gentleman believe that the unclaimed assets could be
 
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used to compensate those people who were victims of solvent wind-ups, such as the Bradstock Group plc, which affected people in my constituency?

3.15 pm

Mr. Field: I do. Those people should be included in the scheme.

Although some of my comments were technical, I hope that for the first time I have been slightly humorous. It is difficult to be humorous in this place if people think that you are not. Neil Kinnock only had to stand up and everyone started laughing. I was pushed into the House by the deputy Chief Whip one day and told to speak. I did not know what the debate was on, and only realised when someone intervened on me. When I got to my feet, I said, "Mr. Speaker, I record reading over the weekend in one of the supplementary volumes to a book on Churchill's life that friends of his were approaching the garden house at Chartwell when they heard the great man say, 'Mr. Speaker, I didn't expect to catch your eye today.' I, Mr. Speaker, did not expect to catch your eye." Not one hon. Member laughed. I am pleased if I managed to put smiles on the faces of Front-Bench spokesmen today.

I do not want my remarks to detract in any way from my thanks to the Government for tabling new clause 34 and to the Ministers for the difficult negotiations that they entered into in order to convince their colleagues that it was the right thing to do. Many of our constituents must have given a big cheer for them. I wish to add my cheer to theirs.

Mr. Webb: When the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) began, I thought that he was giving a whole new meaning to the term "wind-up".

The new clause is a breakthrough. It is the first time that the Government have accepted that it is legitimate to use taxpayers' money to help people who have lost their pensions. It is entirely welcome and I hope that every hon. Member will support it. I hope the House will note the lack of a "but" at the end of that sentence, although there will be one later.

The fact that the new clause exists at all is a tribute to a large number of people. I am not going to turn this into the Oscar ceremony, but the workers and trade unions who have been affected by these issues campaigned tirelessly and deserve great credit. Dr. Ros Altmann, who has not been mentioned in this debate but has in many others, made a huge contribution. She applied her expertise, commitment and compassion in equal measure and brought credibility to the campaign in a way that I have seldom seen before. She deserves huge credit for that.

Many hon. Members also deserve credit. In particular, the hon. Members for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan), for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Mr. Wyatt), for Ayr (Sandra Osborne), the right hon. Member for Birkenhead and others were successful in campaigning on the matter. I have said in other contexts that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West has bored for Wales on the subject. Speaking as someone who was described in the press this morning as a "nerd", I can think of no higher compliment.
 
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The new clause is an important step forward. It is worth reminding ourselves of how far we have come by reflecting on just one quote. The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey has raised the subject many times, including in an Adjournment debate in mid-October 2002. In that debate, the then Minister for Pensions, the right hon. Member for Makerfield (Mr. McCartney), said:

"My hon. Friend has called for an ex gratia payment to be paid into the pension scheme. I would not like to give him false hope. Indeed, I cannot give him any hope. The Government are not able to assist schemes in wind-up that are underfunded."—[Official Report, 16 October 2002; Vol. 390, c. 441.]

That shows the magnitude of what has been achieved, which is to the immense credit of every hon. Member who has pursued the problem doggedly.

We still do not know what we do have, however. The critical point, and we cannot let Ministers off the hook on this, is whether what we have is a hardship fund—a bit of charity because we feel sorry for those people—or a compensation scheme. The distinction matters. If we are to talk about who should be included, how much they should get and when they should get it, the basis on which we are to pay out that money matters. In my judgment, the new clause needs to be about more than a hardship fund.

Why is there a case for more than just a bit of money, in this case £400 million over 20 years? Why is there a case for more than tea and sympathy and £20 million a year? It is because we are talking about people who have paid into their pension for 40 years but got next to nothing. ASW transferred 30 years' worth of miners' pensions into its fund and lost the lot, because a distinction was not made between money transferred in and money that was there all along. That is not right, and it is not just a question of extending sympathy to people in that position, as I shall explain. The system makes provision for a guaranteed minimum pension—a legal term originating in Government statute—but in that case the guaranteed minimum pension was not guaranteed. The Minister for Pensions made an important point when he said that the Government propose that compensation will apply only to schemes that were wound up from 1997 onwards. It was in 1997 that the Pensions Act 1995 came into force. If the financial assistance that is being offered has nothing to do with Government and is just charity, why is it being offered from the date at which an Act of Parliament came into force?

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