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Clause 19
Determination by Tribunal
Amendment made: No. 243, in
clause 19, page 8, line 7, leave out from 'may' to end of line 8.—[Mr. Marris.]
Clause 19, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 22
Content of the register
Mr. Mike Hall (Weaver Vale): I beg to move amendment No. 232, in
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 270, in
Mr. Hall: This is my first contribution to this Standing Committee. It has been a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Stevenson, and that of Mrs. Roe.
I must declare that I am a member of the RSPCA and, like my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test, I contribute to it, rather than the other way around. In passing, this is my first opportunity to put my dog's name on the record. My dog Jess is an RSPCA rescue dog. I have had her for 10 years and was proud to be able to take such a
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wonderful dog home as a family pet. I also contribute to Slutchers lane kennels, which is run by the RSPCA, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington, South (Helen Southworth).
Mr. Gray: I add my congratulations and thanks to the RSPCA on the wonderful work that it does in its dog rescue kennels and on general animal welfare, and add my disapprobation on its campaigning work.
Mr. Hall: I am sure that the RSPCA and the wider world will have listened to that contribution in the same way in which they listened to the contribution from the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire, who decided not to take a rescue dog from the RSPCA because he thought that it did not have the interests of animal welfare at heart.
The amendment concerns the information that will be placed on the register. If the Bill is going to be enforced properly after it is enacted, the names of registered people should be on the register. Where there are group registrations, the amendment would require the names of all members of a group applying for registration to be placed on the register. I shall address the availability of the register in the next set of amendments.
Mr. Gray: Amendment No. 232, which was moved by the hon. Gentleman, and amendment No. 270, which was tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends, are direct opposites, and I shall therefore speak to them together.
It is entirely unnecessary to record the applicants' names—particularly the group applicants—in any form that might become public. There is no suggestion that that such a record would assist in promoting animal welfare or that the registrar would be more inclined to be in favour of applicants or against them. There is also no suggestion that there would be any change to clause 8, which is the central clause of the Bill. It is pointless, from either an animal welfare standpoint or a hunting standpoint, publicly to record peoples' names. I am therefore not certain why the hon. Gentleman has tabled the amendment.
If one seeks to restrict hunting, as the hon. Gentleman does, why should it be necessary for the registrar, who will have carefully considered the relative cruelty and utility of the matter before deciding to register a particular individual, to publish those names? The police do not publish the names and addresses of those people to whom they have granted shotgun licences.
Mr. Hall: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, with whom I agree on that point, for giving way. I am asking for the names to be placed on the register, and the Secretary of State will be able to restrict the information that is made public, in which case I would urge them to restrict the publication of names and addresses.
Mr. Gray: I am somewhat relieved by the hon. Gentleman's point. The names of the people who have applied and have been registered will be listed in the register; otherwise it would not be a register. I have
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every confidence that, as the Bill is drafted, the names and addresses would be on the register. There would be little point in applicants being granted a licence if the registrar did not keep a careful note of their names and addresses. I hope that that point is self-explanatory.
My understanding of the way in which the amendment is drafted is that the hon. Gentleman intended that names and addresses should become public either by their being published or even by their being available by application from certain groups, which we would resist.
Mr. Hall: I am happy to assure the hon. Gentleman that I would look to the Secretary of State to restrict the publication of that information.
Mr. Gray: Given that, I can see little objection to the hon. Gentleman's amendment, but there is also little point to it. It is surely self-explanatory that people will be registered.
Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon): Does my hon. Friend agree that, where information of that sort is held centrally in a database, it is accessible by people who may not be entitled to access it? Recent events in Stormont, where records were tapped into, provide an extreme example of that. The gathering and making of such data has severe implications, and any guarantee from any Minister would not be enough to assuage my feeling that it is dangerous centrally to hold such information.
Mr. Gray: What my hon. Friend has described is regrettably correct. Nowadays, people can people tap into computers in the most extraordinary way. None the less, a large number of private matters affecting our everyday lives, such as criminal records, tax returns and medical records, are kept on computers, and there are suitable safeguards in place to ensure that such information does not become public.
I look forward to hearing the Minister respond to the amendment. He will reassure us that there is no way in which the information about the names and addresses of those who have applied and have been registered will, by any stretch of the imagination, become public either now or in the future. If he can reassure us on that point, we would have no particular objection to the hon. Gentleman's amendment and would not want to press our amendment because we would be content that there would no abuse or vileness from the opposition to those of us who hunt. I look forward to the Minister's response and hope that he can reassure us.
Mr. Luff: On a point of order, Mr. Stevenson. This is a tedious point, and I know what you will tell me—it will not be helpful—but I will give it a try. The hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mr. Hall), who moved the amendment, did not do much to explain its purpose and hinted that further amendments would qualify it. Could he explain how the future amendments will work while staying in order because it is impossible for me to reach a judgment on the amendment's merits without knowing what the other amendments would do?
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The Chairman: Whether hon. Members are able to reach a judgment after listening to the debate is, of course, a matter for them. It is also the responsibility of anyone who speaks to an amendment or part of the Bill to make his case. It is not up to the Chair to determine how long or short their contribution should be, and it is certainly not up to the Chair to anticipate what might happen later. I believe that the hon. Gentleman knew when he stood up that that was not a point of order.
Mr. Gray: To complete my remarks, I am concerned by clause 23(1):
(a) shall make the register available for inspection by the public at all reasonable times, and
(b) shall provide a copy of an entry in the register to any person who requests it.''
It would be entirely unacceptable if that were to be the case and if names and addresses were to be recorded on that part of the register. We seek from the Minister an assurance that despite the provisions of clause 23(1), by no stretch of the imagination will private names and addresses be revealed to the public. I suppose that what is in mind is that the names of the hunts will be listed.
Alun Michael: This has been an interesting short debate, because it has teased out two almost equal but opposite fears about the way in which the register will operate. I hope that I can satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale and the hon. Member for North Wiltshire and, in doing so, make explicit the way in which the register will be maintained. Both amendments could lead to unintended consequences. I hope that my hon. Friend will not press his amendment if I can persuade him that the arrangements will provide the clarity that he seeks.
Clause 22 sets out the information that the registrar is required to maintain in the register, and clause 23 provides for inspection of the register by members of the public. Amendment No. 232 would require the registrar to record the names and addresses of every person registered under a group registration. I am very sympathetic to what my hon. Friend said in support of his amendment. There are grounds for maintaining a list of the names of all the individuals who are registered under a group registration for the purpose of enforcement, but I am not convinced that an individual's address is also required. Clause 32 gives the Secretary of State powers to specify in regulations the information that shall not be included in the publicly available register. Such powers could be used to protect private addresses. My hon. Friend indicated that he expected that that would be the case.
Amendment No. 270 seeks to ensure that the record of each individual who participates in a hunt under a group registration is excluded from the register that is made available for public inspection and copy. An automatic condition of group registration under clause 28(5) is the maintenance of a record of each individual who participates in the hunt on each occasion on which the activity is carried out. However, no provision requires that information to be included in
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the register or made public. Therefore, amendment No. 270 is unnecessary.
The names and addresses of the people who are registered to hunt would be on the register, under the Bill as drafted. I give my hon. Friend that clear assurance.
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