| Hunting Bill
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Andrew George: Many of the assessments have been delayed. Whatever method is viewed as more humane or less cruel, the fact remains that the pro-hunting lobby have raised other concerns, such as the impact on the wider countryside and the inevitable result of indiscriminate and wholesale slaughter. Lembit Öpik: I do not want to labour the point, but if the hon. Member can point us towards an objective comparison of the suffering caused by hunting with dogs and by shooting, the Middle Way Group would welcome it. It is not that we are afraid of the information, but that we do not believe that the information exists. The challenge for those critical of the Middle Way Group is to provide evidence strong enough to make us change it. Being data-based is not possible if the data does not exist. Andrew George: I am grateful for that intervention. A mass of data and evidence has already been presented on what constitutes more or less cruelty. Let us be honest and admit that people come to this debate with preconceived ideas and are unprepared, whatever the evidence, to change their views. Column Number: 050 Unfortunately, I have to include my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire in that group. I do not know what additional data will come to light that would induce him to revise his views—Mr. Luff: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Andrew George: No, I will not. The fact remains that a wealth of data, information, research and argument has been produced on this issue. Lembit Öpik: Will my hon. Friend give way? Andrew George: No. I am not even convinced that the additional information that my hon. Friend seeks would necessarily address his key concerns. Lembit Öpik: To put it on the record, the Middle Way Group can easily state what we are looking for—the wounding rates associated with shooting, which could then be compared with the suffering caused by hunting with dogs. There is no mystery about what we want to find out, but the requisite objective research has not been conducted.
Andrew George: In that case, my hon. Friend should examine some of the work undertaken by Dr. Piran White on fox predation as a cause of lamb mortality or other studies on the shooting of foxes. One study researched by Professor Harris—[
Gregory Barker: Old shot wounds?
Andrew George: There were old shot wounds in the carcases of those foxes. That was only five out of 824. The question has to be asked, who was doing the shooting on those occasions?
Mr. Banks: I do not know if it might help the hon. Gentleman, but the British Pest Control Association has given me a series of alternative fox control methods other than hunting and it cites the number of its members who are fully equipped to deal with fox control. [Interruption.] Yes, shooting is one of them. There is a whole series of small firms in the rural community that are able to deal with foxes other than through hunting. Andrew George: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have described those methods that are known to me and used by members of my family. I also described this morning the method that is used in London. I should have thought that trapping and the use of the bolt to the head would be a very humane method of pest control. I am not convinced about the issue. We can research until the cows come home, but the fact is that the cows are coming home and we need to come to a decision now. We can always conduct further research, but I do not think that the kind of research that some hon. Members suggest will result in our getting closer to the truth. On both sides of the debate, people approach this issue with a pile of prejudices—I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire agrees with that. We have reached the point where a decision must be made, and quickly. Column Number: 051 On clause 8, given the arguments that have been put forward, how does the Minister justify the need for regulation and what scenarios could he envisage in which there would be a need for hunting because—as he must believe, having thought it through—other forms of pest control are less humane than registered hunting? If he is unable to suggest any such scenarios, that would call into question the need for clause 8. The hon. Member for West Ham is right. My view is that Column Number: 052 we should give the issue some further debating time. I am prepared to let the clause through, but I reserve my right at a later stage to support those who wish to delete the proposals on registration and therefore clause 8.
5.33 pmSitting suspended. [Continued in column 395]
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| Prepared 21 January 2003 | |
