| Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill
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Chris Grayling: Elements of the Minister's argument are odd. He has said, as was reinforced by the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire, that there is an issue. He then says that ''Agenda for Change'' will do the job. If that is the case, why is it necessary to constrain the ability of an NHS foundation trust to set pay and conditions? One imagines that he will accept individual cases in which, for example, a specialist hospital wants to upgrade the pay significantly for a particular type of staff to encourage people to train for that role, as there might be a shortage in future. Surely if the broad problem, as described, does not exist, there is no need to prevent a trust from doing that. Mr. Hutton: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman followed my point. Under ''Agenda for Change'', there is a significant latitude and an area of flexibility in the national pay system that did not exist previously, and that will deal with the issue that the hon. Gentleman raised. For the reasons that I have outlined to the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire, we do not want to give the regulator the role, which was suggested by some, of indirectly setting the terms and conditions of staff. Column Number: 230 Chris Grayling: The Minister misunderstands; I was talking about the powers of the trusts, not those of the regulator. Why do trusts need to be constrained in their ability to set pay and conditions? If the Minister is correct, and ''Agenda for Change'' delivers the flexibility that they need, why handcuff the trusts and remove their ability to take detailed decisions about individual clinical issues and staffing problems that might help to solve a local issue in a specialist hospital? Mr. Hutton: We are going around in circles, and I would rather not do that. However, the hon. Gentleman raised the valid point that we should give freedom and flexibility to deal with local recruitment and retention problems to all NHS employing organisations, whether or not they are foundations trusts. That is what ''Agenda for Change'' does, and that is the benefit of the national pay agreement for NHS foundation trusts. That is why all potential applicants for NHS foundation trust status have agreed to proceed as early implementers of the ''Agenda for Change'' package. There is much in it for NHS employers, whether or not they are foundation trusts. The point raised by the hon. Lady is fair and reasonable, and we are alert to the problem that she mentioned. It is in no one's interest, across the NHS, for that type of unfair competition for staff to go unchecked. It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order. Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.
The following Members attended the Committee:
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| Prepared 20 May 2003 | |
