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Standing Committee E
Tuesday 4 March 2003
(Morning)
[Mr. Joe Benton in the Chair]
8.55 am
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Angela Smith): We seek your indulgence, Mr. Benton, with regard to a slight change in our proceedings. You will appreciate that talks are taking place in Northern Ireland now, and it would facilitate our discussions here if the members of the Committee who are currently involved in those talks were present.
I beg to move, That further consideration be now adjourned.
Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne): As members of the official Opposition, we were consulted about this matter yesterday. We have no objections to such a proposal. We accept that the discussions have continued longer than was first thought necessary. It would be proper for the Minister of State to be in Committee for further consideration of the Bill, but we accept that it is sensible for her to be in Northern Ireland for the talks. We have no complaints about that. The substance of what is being discussed there is not a matter for us.
However, the pertinent subject that I raised when we debated the original programming motion is a matter for us. I had an inkling that we might be in such a position this morning. If I understood the newspapers correctly, part of the talks that are taking place concern policing in Northern Ireland. It is not for the Committee to argue whether it is right or wrong to hold such discussions. However, it is essential for the Government to understand that in agreeing to their request, we are not agreeing that the Committee should in future be used as a vehicle for implementing what may be agreed over the next 24 or 48 hours. I made it clear at the beginning that our proceedings in Committee concern a Bill that started in the House of Lords. It was discussed fully there, and it was discussed on Second Reading, when the whole of the House of Commons could participate. It is now being considered in detail here.
I should be grateful if the Minister could assure us that when we resume consideration of the Bill, it is the Bill, and the Bill alone, that we will be dealing with. If the Government reach agreement with the parties in Northern Ireland to change policing, that should be the subject of separate legislation, so that both Houses of Parliament can have a full debate on the Second Reading of any such Bill.
I am grateful that we were consulted yesterday, but we were given some dates and times when the Committee should sit again. That was not a matter for consultation; it seemed a little like a ''take it or leave it'' statement. In order for a Programming Sub-Committee to meet when there is not universal agreement, proper notice has to be given. I should be
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grateful for your ruling, Mr. Benton. While supporting the Minister's proposal that further consideration be adjourned, I am not suggesting in any way, shape or form that Her Majesty's Opposition agree with the other matters that have been proposed. They should be matters for consultation.
The Chairman: I am advised that the remit of the Programming Sub-Committee will fall under my purview. It is legitimate to have the suggested motion put to the Committee as an alternative, and I understand that if further consideration of that is needed, it will come under my remit.
Mr. Wilshire: In that case may I indicate to you, Mr. Benton, and your co-Chairman, that my support for this morning's motion does not imply support at this stage for any other things that may or may not have been informally mentioned to you, to the Clerks or to us? I do not suggest that we will automatically oppose such things, but we need to complete the Committee's business. For example, it was suggested that we meet on Thursday. I have not had the chance to ask my colleagues whether they can physically manage to attend on Thursday. They made themselves available today in all good faith—although they are not here now because I did not want to drag them in at 5 to 9, as I knew that we would support the motion.
My party and I readily support the motion to adjourn. However, I would be grateful for an assurance from the Minister that we shall not use the Committee to do anything related to the negotiations that are occurring. The negotiations should be separate. Before we reach an arrangement to complete the work of the Committee, the usual channels should have a good chance to talk about that and to report back to you, Mr. Benton.
The Chairman: I have noted carefully what the hon. Gentleman has said. If there is fundamental disagreement at any stage, I shall be happy, in consultation with the learned Clerk, to consider anything that he puts forward.
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): The Liberal Democrats also understand the reasons for the motion. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) said that the talks in Northern Ireland had gone on longer than necessary—but shouting will always be better than shooting, and if the talks lead to a significant step forward in the peace process, they are worth while.
I have two concerns, which are on roughly the same lines as what we heard from the hon. Member for Spelthorne. I have mentioned before the enormous difficulty of scrutinising properly legislation that relates to Northern Ireland. That is simply because of the compressed nature of the legislation and the fact that consideration of different things often happens at the same time. This situation presents the Government with an opportunity to be more respectful of the pressures that they are putting on the Opposition. As we are supporting their motion, they should ensure that they are considerate towards our request to have the space to do the jobs that we have been elected to do.
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As the points made by the hon. Member for Spelthorne implied, several of us feel that the Government have been racing ahead with legislation at breakneck speed and have played fast and loose with the processes of Parliament. They have used the suspension as an opportunity to say, ''Take it or leave it,'' again and again about legislation that in Northern Ireland might have been subject to considerable consultation, but has not been deeply debated in this House.
The Liberal Democrats ask for the programme motion to be explicit, for no other reason than the fact that our Northern Irish colleagues have difficulty attending the Committee. We, and the Conservatives, would be extremely unhappy if the Committee was used to push something through that has been unilaterally agreed by one side or another in the peace talks. I want the Minister's assurance that there is no intention to use the Committee as a vehicle for something that might not achieve broad cross-community support.
Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry): I heard what the Minister said. The hon. Member for Spelthorne said that there had been discussions and consultation with the official Opposition, and I wonder whether the non-appearance of the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) and the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) indicates that there was also consultation with them. There was no such consultation with me or with my party. Having said that, I have no particular gripe. I would support any honest endeavour to ensure that all members of the Committee can be present at its sittings. However, I would have deep misgivings and worries if the Committee were reconvened in order to consider further new amendments, which are currently—
Mr. Wilshire: I may be able to help the hon. Gentleman indirectly. It was made clear to me yesterday that the right hon. Member for Upper Bann had said that he could not be here, and was content with what is happening this morning. I enter the caveat that that information was second hand, from the usual channels. It appears that the other Unionist party was consulted, and I am shocked to hear that the hon. Gentleman was not. I sincerely hope that the usual channels will note that all parties should be involved in such discussions.
Mr. Campbell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that information. However, as I said in a previous sitting, there seems to be an ongoing attempt not to consult some parties in Northern Ireland, especially those that fundamentally disagree with the approach and the basis on which the Government are building and reconstituting present institutions. That should not happen. Irrespective of the party political position, there should be a requirement to consult widely, regardless of whether people are in favour of, or fundamentally opposed to, the Government position.
I am in an awkward position, because some of the clauses that were to be discussed this morning go to the very root of the problems that we are experiencing
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in Northern Ireland. In our debate on new clauses 1, 2 and 3, we would have discussed the discriminatory nature of recruitment to the Police Service. I am happy to accommodate hon. Members, but I shall fire a clear warning shot across the Government's bows: I earnestly hope that when we reconvene, we deal with the business of the House, rather than the business of the House plus other direct unilateral discussions such as those outlined by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr. Öpik), which subsequently become part of the business of the Committee.
Angela Smith: I am grateful to hon. Members for their comments, and for their support for adjourning the Committee this morning, which is helpful. I take on board the comments made by the hon. Member for Spelthorne, although he may wish to clarify one of them. He said that he understood that talks had gone on ''longer than is necessary''. I am sure that all of us hope that the Assembly will be running as soon as possible, and agree that talks should take as long as necessary.
Mr. Wilshire: I am grateful for the chance to correct that, if I did say it. I intended to say ''longer than expected''.
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