Water Bill [Lords]

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Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Lewes for his compliment, but he should have stopped there instead of putting the boot in later.

This was a clarifying amendment. I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the fat cats' charter. We must ensure that there is a proper incentive for all workers in the sector to work as hard as they can, and that they are remunerated properly. The probing amendments sought to do that. Sometimes we go too far in the interests of transparency, and that was what I was probing. The Government have not done a great deal to change my mind, but I do not wish to press the amendment at this stage. If necessary, we can always bring it back on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Wiggin: I beg to move amendment No. 90, in

clause 53, page 68, line 6, leave out from 'it' to end of line 8.

The amendment relates to the provision that states that the statement

''may be published by the Authority in such manner as it may consider appropriate.''

That is not the right sort of freedom to allow. If the Bill specifies that the authority must publish a statement, we should at least guide the authority about the way in which to do that. I know that the Minister will say that the authority could publish the statement on its website, but I hope that we will be a little more prescriptive, or remove the provision and not be prescriptive at all. We should be one or the other.

Mr. Thomas: I respect what the hon. Member for Leominster has been trying to do, but he goes too far in this case. How can transparency be taken too far? I just do not accept that as a principle. The information is vital. Consumers pay their water bills—we want them to do that, of course—and therefore there must be a sense of trust and an exchange of information between the consumer and the water company. One of the central parts of that must be that when I pay my water bill I know what remuneration the director is getting compared with their standards of performance during that year. In Wales, we can do that in a slightly different way because Glas Cymru is a different sort of water company.

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Mr. Wiggin: I think that we have moved on from that debate. We are now discussing amendment No. 90, which concerns publication of the authority's statements. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is making helpful points, but he may find that it is too late, although it is not for me to decide that.

Mr. Thomas: My understanding of amendment No. 90 is that the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right.—[Laughter.]

Mr. Morley: That is a first for the day.

There is a general issue about transparency. Amendment No. 90 relates to the duty to publish information about links between directors' pay and standards of performance. The intention is to go a little further than the hon. Gentleman is assuming in the publication and availability of that information. It is also the intention to publish statements so that it is easy to compare the arrangements with the performance of each company. The amendment would make it much more difficult for shareholders and customers to hold companies to account, because they would have to approach each company separately to collect the necessary information. The purpose of the provision is to make it easy to compare the information and have it available, and to provide the authority with the flexibility to do that.

Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful to the Minister and to the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), and for the interventions. I hope that the hon. Member for Workington (Tony Cunningham) will ensure that his Minister has a good lunch so that when he returns this afternoon he is in a more charitable mood. I know that the Minister is generally a better bloke than he has been this morning. That apart, I am more than willing to show my charitable side by withdrawing my amendment, because I have no wish to prevent information from being published. However, the provision is not as clear as other parts of the Bill. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 53 ordered to stand part of the Bill

Clause 54

Reasons for decisions

Mr. Wiggin: I beg to move amendment No. 91, in

clause 54, page 69, line 11, leave out from 'decision' to end of line 13.

The amendment would omit the words

''in such manner as it considers appropriate for the purpose of bringing the matters to which the notice relates to the attention of persons likely to be interested.''

I did not understand those words, and I hope that the Minister can explain what they mean.

Mr. Morley: Clause 54 is intended to increase regulatory transparency, openness and certainty. It requires the authority, the Secretary of State and the National Assembly for Wales to publish and disseminate reasons for decisions taken in relation to

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undertakers' conditions of appointment and the licences of licensed water suppliers. I would not have thought that that was controversial, because it is important to have information. It is necessary to prescribe a minimum acceptable level of publicity to ensure that the provision achieves its aim and continues to do so. The purpose of the amendment may be to promote a more general responsibility or approach to publishing decisions, but it would risk reducing the openness of the process by removing that part of the provision which forces a reasonable level of publication. The provision provides a minimum safeguard to ensure that the information is in the public domain.

Mr. Wiggin: I am grateful for the Minister's reply and I am very keen to withdraw my amendment so that we can move on to the next one. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment

Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

Clause 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 55

Co-operation between water regulators

Mr. Wiggin: I beg to move amendment No. 92, in

clause 55, page 69, line 32, at end insert—

(e) the Drinking Water Inspectorate'.

Why are we not encouraging co-operation between the Secretary of State, the Welsh Assembly, the Environment Agency, the Water Services Regulation Authority and the drinking water inspectorate? Why have they been omitted from this important part of the Bill, which encourages co-operation? It would have been helpful if they had been included, which my amendment would do.

Mr. Morley: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, but those organisations have not been left out. They are covered in clause 55. The drinking water inspectorate is the responsibility of the Secretary of State and acts on her behalf, so the inspectorate will be bound by the same duty that is already imposed on the Secretary of State and will be covered by the memorandum of understanding between the Secretary of State and each of the other water regulators. The hon. Gentleman made a fair point, but it is already covered.

It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Sessional Order C [29 October 2002] and the Order of the Committee [16 September 2003], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Amendment negatived.

The Chairman then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that time.

Clauses 55 to58 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.

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The following Members attended the Committee:
Amess, Mr. David (Chairman)
Ainger, Mr.
Baker, Norman
Brennan, Kevin
Burden, Richard
Cunningham, Tony
Doughty, Sue
Drew, Mr.
Iddon, Mr.
King, Andy
Knight, Jim

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Lansley, Mr.
Liddell-Grainger, Mr.
Morley, Mr.
Osborne, Mr. George
Palmer, Dr.
Simon, Mr.
Swire, Mr.
Thomas, Mr. Simon
Tipping, Paddy
Wiggin, Mr.

 

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Prepared 16 October 2003