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Mr. Heath: First, the hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) will recall that on Second Reading I referred to the family division and its absence from the proposals. Co-location between the family division and magistrates courts or even county courts is crucial and should be considered in the context of the efficient and effective use of court buildings. In particular, smaller courts that deal with
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relatively few cases in rural areas can make all the difference to cost effectiveness.
Secondly, I welcome the Government's acceptance of the amendment on the annual report and the fact that that will not be reversed.
Thirdly, we have heard a lot of nonsense about a supreme court in recent weeks with people suggesting that it is a wholly American term that we have imported to discuss the future of the House of Lords. That is not so. It is a term that is basic to English and Welsh law, but I wonder whether there is a satisfactory definition of supreme court in other statutes. I have always understood it to be the High Court and Court of Appeal as a whole. The clause appears to change the definition, although I am not sure whether it is a change or clarification, and we need to know whether there is a satisfactory definition of what we in this country mean by supreme court before we try to amend it and call it something else.
Mr. Leslie: It is important not to neglect the central aspects of the clause when discussing whether it should stand part of the Bill. It places on the Lord Chancellor a duty of securing the efficient and effective administration of the courts in England and Wales. It also requires him to present a report to Parliament on the new agency within 18 months of its establishment and annually thereafter. This clause acts as the means by which unification of the administration of all courts in England and Wales, except for the House of Lords, can be undertaken. That was the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West, particularly in respect of the divisional court of the Queen's bench division, which has some criminal jurisdiction and is the only court that tends to sit regularly. I am assured that it will be part of the unified administration and I hope that that answers my hon. Friend's point.
In reply to the point raised by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome, the family court and civil branches will be included in the unified courts administration. We have identified around 70 opportunities to house county courts in magistrates courts, which may be helpful in widening local access to civil justice.
In practice, the Lord Chancellor will establish a new executive agency for the day-to-day running of the courts. The agency will replace the Court Service, the magistrates courts committees and the Greater London Magistrates Courts Authority.
The Lord Chancellor is currently required to publish and lay before Parliament an annual report on the business of the Supreme Court and the county courts, namely the Court Service annual report. The clause extends that requirement to all the business of the unified court system for which the Lord Chancellor will be responsible. It is a means of holding the agency, via the Lord Chancellor, accountable to Parliament for its performance.
Mr. Heath: I am genuinely surprised at what the Minister said about the family division because it does not seem to be included in the unified court structure
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under the Bill, although he obviously knows what he is talking about. Will it come under the jurisdiction of the courts boards? It is not specifically included in clause 5(4) and I am surprised that if it comes within the unified structure it is excluded.
Mr. Leslie: A number of important issues have been usefully raised and it might be helpful if I write to hon. Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Court officers, staff and services
Mr. Hawkins: I beg to move amendment No. 7, in
This is a probing amendment. I hope that the Minister will understand that I am not being mischievous here. I want to enable the Committee to have a debate about the specific future role and the independence required of justices' clerks. All those members of the Committee who are lawyers will know that the vast majority of criminal cases in this country are dealt with entirely in the magistrates courts. I think that the figure is about 96 or 97 per cent. Lay magistrates have no legal training and so rely on justices' clerks to give them advice on points of law.
During my years of practice at the Bar I got to know a number of justices' clerks very well. When I read for the Bar in the late 1970s I studied with a number of people who were in the process of being called to the Bar as part of their professional training as justices' clerks. A huge number of justices' clerks do a fantastically good job. I certainly remember that they were keen to preserve their independence. I therefore want the Committee to be able to debate the change in their status. My amendment suggests that justices' clerks should not be rolled up into the generic description of civil servants, but should retain all their pre-existing rights of employment.
If no one challenges what is happening we are in danger of accepting this nationalisation, as the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome described it, on the nod. It is a small point, but we need to address whether it is right for there to be an expansion of the numbers of those coming under the control of central Government. There is a creeping nationalisation. There has been a huge growth of public sector jobs since the Government came to power, which has been written about by various economic commentators.
I have received representations from the Association of Magisterial Officers saying that as long as their trade union rights are protected they are quite comfortable with what is going on. However, we should not allow this to go through on the nod. The Minister should at least explain how the independent role of justices' clerks, which has been a historic feature of magistrates courts, will be safeguarded.
Mr. Leslie: I will take the hon. Gentleman's comments in the spirit in which they are intended. I
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will try not to be too pedantic about the wording of this probing amendment. We believe that making justices' clerks civil servants will give them enhanced career prospects that will include the chance to work in the headquarters of the new agency, for example, or for the Department of Constitutional Affairs more generally, if they feel and we feel that that is appropriate. They will also be eligible to join the principal civil service pension scheme and will be eligible for other superannuation benefits in the same way as other civil servants.
We feel that for justices' clerks to retain their pre-existing employment status and rights and not to be civil servants in the new agency is not the way forward. The amendment has a number of unworkable elements. At present justices' clerks are appointed by magistrates courts committees and are employed under their terms and conditions. However, magistrates courts committees will no longer exist by virtue of clause 6. All justices' clerks will be transferred to the employment of the Lord Chancellor and so they would have no employer if they were not made civil servants under the provision.
In setting up the new agency, we will be applying the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) principles to the staff transfer. That means that the new employer will take the same perspective as the old and that an individual's terms and conditions from the MCCs apply on transfer to the new agency. Almost all staff will be mapped across on the same duties, at the same location, with new senior management, but with no change to their terms and conditions. However, pay and conditions might change in the future as a result of the transfer. Over time, we will be looking to harmonise terms and conditions. However, it is much too early to say when and in what circumstances. We will, of course, consult the relevant employee associations and trade unions in advance of any decisions being finalised.
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Clause 29 states that a justices' clerk, while exercising an advisory or judicial function, will not be subject to the direction of the Lord Chancellor, or anyone else. Justices' clerks will, therefore, have the same statutory guarantee of independence in relation to their advisory or judicial functions as they currently have.
Gareth Thomas: The statutory guarantee preserving justices' clerks independence in relation to giving advice to their justices is crucial. That is a full answer to the point raised by the hon. Member for Surrey Heath.
Mr. Leslie: That is entirely true and is one of the reasons why I made those comments. I should also mention that justices' clerks are not judges under the current system and will not be judges under the new system. There is a statutory guarantee of independence, so I invite the hon. Member for Surrey Heath to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Hawkins: I am grateful to the Minister. It was useful to have those matters clarified and put on the record. I am still somewhat concerned that the change is going through swiftly. It is quite a major change.
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People who have had, in their official capacity, independence from the state are to be walled up in new state bureaucracy. I am slightly surprised that the change has, apparently, been welcomed. I have a nasty feeling that in a few years' time, when the people concerned start getting let down by the Labour Government on pay and conditions, there will be many protests. People will say, ''We never realised that it would mean this. We would much rather have kept our old position.''
Nevertheless, having put the matter on the record, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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