| Licensing Bill [Lords]
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Mr. Hoban: I shall mention a couple of matters given that I doubt whether we shall have a clause stand Column Number: 357 part debate. I refer to ''plan'' under subsection (4)(b). It has been drawn to my attention by a licensing lawyer that some licensed premises may not have a plan that has been lodged with the magistrates. When the Bill comes into effect under the transitional arrangements, at what point will such premises be required to supply a plan to the new licensing authority? Will it be at the start of the transitional arrangements, at the end, or at the time of a subsequent review? That is an important issue for clubs and for other licensed premises that may be in that position.I am sure that the Minister will put me right on my other point. I hope that nothing in subsection (1) will preclude a club from qualifying for a licence for new premises that are not habitually used or occupied for the purposes of a club. Dr. Howells: Clause 71 sets out the arrangements for applying for a club premises certificate. Subsection (1) states that a qualifying club
Although we have taken steps to ensure that the special position of clubs is preserved under the new system, we are not proposing some sort of free-for-all for qualifying clubs. Local residents are entitled to as much protection from the activities of qualifying clubs as they are from licensed premises. The licensing objectives are no less important for premises used by qualifying clubs than for other types of premises. That is why subsection (1) restricts the application for a club premises certificate to those premises that are habitually used by the club. Without that condition, the lighter-touch regime set out in the Bill for qualifying clubs in possession of a club premises certificate might be extended to a wide range of premises indeed, potentially undermining some of the checks, balances and protections provided. Mr. Moss: Perhaps the Minister will give some examples of what he meant by allowing certain other clubs or institutions to become qualifying clubs. I do not follow that. Dr. Howells: We were talking about ''habitually used''. I can think of a number of rugby clubs in my constituency, for example, in which drinking might certainly go on in the clubhouse. The fields, however, which sometimes do not adjoin the clubhouse, are also habitually used by rugby clubs but are not often used for drinking; they might occasionally be used that way for a fête or some other fundraising event. Generally, ''habitually'' has a specific meaning that I shall deal with under amendment No. 305. That amendment would make it explicit in the Bill that a club may apply for a club premises certificate to cover any premises that may be used for carrying out qualifying club activities. I hope that it has become clear during our debate on other amendments that the system that the Bill provides for qualifying clubs is designed to deliver a lighter-touch regime than that which applies to licensed premises in general. Of course, that does not mean that we can ignore the licensing objectives or the Column Number: 358 legitimate concerns of local residents and the need for expert scrutiny by responsible authorities.The Bill allows a qualifying club to apply for a certificate for the premises that it occupies and habitually uses. Departure from that ring-fencing test, as proposed under the amendment—I hope that this answers the hon. Gentleman—would not only undermine the promotion of the licensing objectives, particularly when the supply of alcohol is proposed, but would weaken protection for local residents and present the industry at large with a measure of unfair competition. We dealt with that issue earlier. Indeed, the amendment undermines some of the arguments deployed to justify the special position of the club movement. Clause 71(4) states that
must accompany the application. The hon. Member for Fareham asked when a plan had to be submitted. When applying for the conversion of an existing licence during the transitional period, a plan of the premises must be deposited with the licensing authority. I hope that that clarifies the matter for the hon. Gentleman. Amendments Nos. 306 to 309 and 311 would remove the requirement for the rules to accompany the application and would also remove the concept of the club operating schedule and replace it simply with an operating schedule. Amendment No. 312 would, by extension, remove the concept of a qualifying club activity and replace it with a reference to the licensing activity used in relation to licensed premises under part 3 of the Bill. The amendments would undermine the distinction between qualifying clubs and licensed premises. As I hope I have made clear during the debate, the special status of the club movement is worth preserving and that is reflected by the separate, although similar in several respects, systems in parts 3 and 4. Some may argue that that is a cosmetic distinction. The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire hinted at that, but it is not the case. There is a fundamental difference between the sale of alcohol under a premises licence and the supply of alcohol by or on behalf of qualifying clubs to members or guests under the authority of a club premises certificate. That difference arises from the fact that members of the qualifying club are already treated as owning the stock and the qualifying club supplies as opposed to sells alcohol to them, so the nature of qualifying club activities under the Bill is different from the set of licensable activities.
4.45 pmIt makes sense therefore, if only for the sake of clarity, to set out the qualifying club activities in a special club operating schedule, especially when we consider the fact that nothing will prevent a club from applying for a premises licence to authorise activities that are not covered, or cannot be covered, by the club premises certificate—for example, the sale of alcohol to members of the public. Indeed, our expectation is that several qualifying clubs will have both a club premises certificate and a premises licence in respect of Column Number: 359 premises. Furthermore, it makes sense that the rules of the club accompany an application so that the licensing authority can be sure that the club is a qualifying club. I hope that my explanation has helped the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire.Subsection (5) sets out the contents of the club operating schedule. It must include a statement of the relevant qualifying club activities, the times during which the relevant qualifying club activities are to take place, any other times during which it is proposed that the premises are to be open to members and their guests, the steps that it is proposed to take to promote the licensing objectives and such other matters as may be prescribed, and given the Government's amendment that has been agreed by the Committee when the supply of alcohol is involved, a statement about whether the club proposes to supply alcohol for consumption on the premises or both on and off the premises. I understand that amendment No. 310 would require the club operating schedule to include details of any times during which the premises were to be hired out for functions to non-members of the club. Following on from the points that I have made, I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that the amendment would be unnecessary. Any licensable activities to be carried out during a function for which the premises were to be hired out to non-members of the club would not be covered by the authorisation provided by the club premises certificate. A separate authorisation would need to be obtained by virtue of a premises licence under which all the provisions of the Bill would operate normally, including the provision of an operating schedule, an advertisement to local residents and notification to the responsible authorities—the police, fire and environmental health authorities. They would all apply. There would be no need for separate notification via the inclusion of the information proposed under the amendment and, on that basis, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will regard that as reassuring and withdraw the amendment. Mr. Turner: Again, the more that I hear the Minister's reply to the debate, the more intrigued I am becoming. His performance makes me cogitate on other opportunities that may arise for the implementation of the Bill. One of our amendments, I forget which, would insert a further provision between subsection (5)(c) and (d). I have drawn my inspiration from the Freshwater Conservative club in my constituency and I am concerned about what is and what is not a licensable activity. The key distinction between a club and other premises is the requirement that people be members before alcohol can be sold to them. I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I go down the wrong track, and the quicker he corrects me, the quicker I will be able to shut up. If a club decides to provide singing and dancing for its members, that is a licensable activity, but that is not at the root of the distinction between its club certificate and the licence that it might otherwise obtain. The Column Number: 360 club needs to say if it is going to supply singing and dancing for its members when it applies for the premises certificate. If it is going to hire out the premises to another organisation to provide a discotheque, for example, the Minister has just explained that that has to be covered elsewhere in the legislation. But what would happen if it decides to hold a discotheque that is open to its members and members of the public?Dr. Howells: I put it to the hon. Gentleman that it is impossible to be intrigued by my last contribution. I was very impressed with it myself, but I was not intrigued by it. I can only assume that he was hypnotised by it because I am sure that he does know the difference between a club and other licensed premises. If the circumstances that he has just described took place, the club would need a premises licence. That is the difference, and many clubs have a premises licence as well as taking part in the arrangements specific to clubs.
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