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The Chairman: Order. When members of the Committee are speaking, they should address the Chair. Furthermore, I remind hon. Members of the
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more technical reason for facing the right way—so that the microphones pick up all that is said.
Chris Grayling: Thank you, Mr. Griffiths, and I apologise for facing the other way.
The Chairman: I realise that the temptation is great.
Chris Grayling: I return briefly to the intervention made by the hon. Member for Monmouth, who raised an important point about what decisions the Welsh Assembly might be free to take. It is not a Wales-only issue because CHCs have the power to scrutinise services across the border in England. I refer to the current work of the Association of Welsh Community Health Councils, which is
''voicing concerns about the English NHS plan which is weakening the strength of the patient voice in the NHS, and . . . will affect all Welsh patients who receive health services in England''.
The implications of our decisions about the powers of the Assembly are not exclusively Welsh. It may not be a major issue, but we should reflect on it.
I would prefer not to press the issue to a vote, although I am prepared to do so. I accept that some hon. Members will feel that our proposed framework is too rigid. Nevertheless, we stand by the principle that we should set guidelines to prevent the Assembly from taking any power that it wishes with regard to appointments. It might do so by specifying a minimum representation from patient groups, from local authorities and from other groups within the community—we do not want to prescribe exactly how things are done; it is not a question of percentages. However, in order to ensure that the checks and balances that I have described exist, minimum parameters should be set in the legislation. It should state that there must be representatives from local authorities and local groups. If the Minister will accept the principle and will agree to consider whether that element of the Bill can be strengthened in order to ensure that that safeguard exists, we shall be happy to withdraw the amendment. Will he do that?
5.15 pm
Mr. Touhig: I would, but for the fact that the proposals that I have articulated today are supported by the CHCs themselves. They are urging the Assembly to introduce open recruitment. The Government and the Assembly are responding to the requirements of those who run CHCs in Wales.
The Assembly's recruitment process is published, it is subject to a code of practice and it is open, and the Assembly, as a body corporate, has approved the code. The Opposition are right to express fears that, at some time, a different political party might try to change the code for party political ends. However, it would have to put the issue to a vote in the Assembly before a change could be made. I reassure the hon. Gentleman that there is an open and transparent system for recruiting people to serve on CHCs. The Bill seeks to extend that, not to diminish the important roles of the voluntary sector and local authorities. We are responding to a demand from CHCs in Wales, which favour a more open recruitment process.
I do not know what more I can say to satisfy the hon. Gentleman, other than to make it absolutely clear
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that we are committed to the process; it is there for everybody to see. Nothing is hidden and anyone can apply. People in my community have asked how they might apply and I have given them the forms and paperwork to send in. When I attend meetings in my constituency, I ask for a show of hands to indicate who serves on the CHC. If no hands go up, I ask people to serve and invite them to apply; I tell them that we need people like them, representing all parts of the community, to participate. That is the process that the Assembly is promoting. I urge the hon. Gentleman to reflect and to withdraw the amendment and new clause 1, and to accept my assurance that the CHC movement throughout Wales supports the increasingly open and transparent recruitment process.
Chris Grayling: I have listened carefully to the Minister. I know that he is a man of principle and I accept his word. Will he at least bear in mind the concerns that have been raised? I know that further steps are to be taken in the establishment of the bodies and I hope that he and his Department will be watchful to ensure that the recruitment process, as it evolves, provides genuine independence. Accepting his word that he is mindful of that, I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
Wales Centre for Health
Mr. Evans: I beg to move amendment No. 8, in
clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end insert '; but at least one-third of the members shall be appointed only on the nomination of community health councils.'.
I welcome the hon. Member for Caernarfon back to the Committee after the strains and tortures of finding a dentist who was prepared to deal with him. I hope that he is in much better shape now than he was a few hours ago.
The clause and the amendment deal with the Wales Centre for Health, a body that we all welcome. It could be vital in promoting activities to protect and improve health in Wales, and will also be known as Canolfan Iechyd Cymru. I see it as an important body, which is why we seek to amend the Bill in such a way. I should be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on our suggestion, which tries to ensure some independence for the body, and with good reason.
Subsection (2) states:
''The Centre is to consist of such number of members appointed by the National Assembly for Wales as the Assembly may determine''.
That is an extremely wide power, and lets the Assembly appoint exactly whom it likes. The nomination powers may be the same as those that we spoke about on the previous amendment. The Assembly will be able to appoint the chairman or propose further regulations as to how he may be appointed.
One reason why we seek more certainty of independence for a body that champions patients' rights is that it will deal with some important aspects
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of health promotion and protection. Prevention of smoking in public places was mentioned on Second Reading. Perhaps the centre will recommend policy guidance on that on behalf of the Welsh Assembly, or on behalf of us in Westminster if we want to take primary powers to try to improve health. Smoking raises the emotions of many people in one way or another, but the subject is controversial.
The body may deal with substance abuse as well, a vital subject that is sometimes overlooked. Ten years ago, I was extremely concerned about glue sniffing, as it was then known. Substance abuse still goes on, involving glue and other substances, and some direction is needed on it. Alcohol abuse is widely recognised in the House; the all-party group on alcohol misuse has an important role in bringing those problems to the fore. CHCs may want to carry out a study so as to start a campaign to promote sensible policy guidance on the subject.
I am a former chairman of the all-party group on drugs misuse, and there may be a campaign on drugs. I would welcome that in the whole community in Wales, especially schools and youth centres. I was saddened to read today that nine pupils had been suspended from a north Wales secondary school after they were allegedly caught with cannabis. The school is in Denbighshire, and the pupils have been suspended for up to 10 days. Disturbingly, the report on the matter stated that it would be the fifth time in 2002 that pupils at schools in north and mid-Wales had been disciplined over drugs.
That must concern all members of the Committee. We must put the message across, whether in relation to cannabis or other drugs, and we must deal with the problems that young people face. We would all welcome a campaign in schools led by the Wales Centre for Health. Again, there are resource implications, but the money would be saved in spades.
Mr. Jones: On a point of order, Mr. Griffiths. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to make a speech on a wide variety of drugs without declaring an interest as owner of a tobacconist shop?
The Chairman: I call the hon. Member for Ribble Valley to declare his interest.
Mr. Evans: The interest is in the Register of Members' Interests for everyone to see.
The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman does not sell cannabis.
Mr. Evans: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Griffiths. I suspect that the profits would not be as dire if we did, but I would not recommend that policy for our humble newsagent's shop. We do, however, sell cigarettes, which I sometimes find awkward, as, I suspect, do the tobacco companies because I recommend that people give up smoking. Any campaign that we can encourage in that regard must be welcomed.
The Wales Centre for Health will have much work on its hands. There will be many campaigns. The Assembly will have powers to recommend that the centre examines certain key areas. No doubt, some hon. Members will write to the centre to highlight their areas of concern. As we know, there is the problem of
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crime and drugs, not just youth and drugs. Three quarters of crime is drug-related, and if we can tackle the one, surely we can tackle the other. On a more positive note, the centre may want to campaign on healthy lifestyles and on gaining fitness through taking more exercise, such as walking instead of taking the bus or driving the car. We tabled the amendment with the aim of ensuring an independent element within that body.
My hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell referred to active voluntary groups. They should be allowed to be independent so that they can act on behalf of patients and see at first hand some of the problems with which the health service is faced. I am not sure how active those active groups are, or whether they have one person who is a champion for a particular cause. All hon. Members know people who fall into that category and who write to us regularly. Where would we be without them? Where would we be without the organisations that draw from a much wider pool of people; people who meet regularly to discuss issues such as the Red Cross, death, multiple sclerosis, strokes, or ME, which was commonly referred to as ''yuppie flu''? I suspect that all hon. Members have received letters from people who want the Government to do more about ME, and who doubtless want the Welsh Assembly to recognise it as a real illness, which I do, as well as to place greater emphasis on securing more consultants and specialists to deal with it.
The Assembly may not be so keen to concentrate on one area because of the resource implications. A group of people with their own nominees on CHCs may push the centre to consider key conditions that may not be as high profile as others. People with such conditions should not be denied access to the research that the centre will promote. I hope that when the centre is created, several of its reports will be made as widely available as possible on the internet and elsewhere.
We tabled the amendment because, under the schedule, the Assembly has the powers to appoint anyone to this particular body, to determine how the chairman may be appointed or even to appoint the chairman itself. That gives me cause for concern. The centre could be extremely effective in helping to promote good health in Wales and to prevent illness if it can do its job in the most effective way. I hope that the Committee will accept that there should be an element of independence within that body. I hope that we can gain some support for our amendment.
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