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Mr. Clifton-Brown: I listened to the Minister's reply with great sadness, because it confirmed my prejudice about this Government: they are not true democrats. One day they may come to regret the stance that they are taking because they may find themselves living in an environment where a different party has a large majority and they may want turnouts and thresholds that can help them. Nobody who believes in democracy—it would be surprising if anyone wished to be elected to Parliament who did not—could fail to appreciate the argument that we were trying to put across.
I make it absolutely clear that I am not saying that the threshold that we proposed was right. We may well want to propose a different threshold at a different time. This is an important matter that might be revisited in another place and on Report. Therefore, I will be urging my right hon. and hon. Friends not to press the amendment to a Division on the basis that we may want to bring it back again.
The Chairman: Is the amendment being withdrawn?
Mr. Hall: The amendments in my name are probing amendments. However—my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East and Saddleworth (Mr. Woolas) should not get upset about this—I am now tempted to press the amendment, but only if we can do so on a
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dual key basis; first, a simple headcount and, secondly, the totals of the rateable values of the constituency offices of hon. Members.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: That would be too complicated.
Mr. Hall: I agree.
The hon. Gentleman makes my point about the risks of the dual key.
I have raised legitimate questions about the dual key. It will be tested in practice, and I hope that my concerns will prove unnecessary. History will be the judge. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 52 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 53
Power of veto
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I beg to move amendment No. 153, in clause 53, page 22, line 8, leave out from 'proposals' to end of line 9.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments:
No. 76, in
clause 53, page 22, line 9, at end insert—
'(2A) In deciding whether to exercise the veto a billing authority must have regard to—
(a) the identification of the classes of owners of superior property interests proposed to be charged,
(b) any classes of owners of superior property interests who are not proposed to be charged,
(c) the allocated proportion proposed to be charged to each owner of a superior property interest, and
(d) the proposed arrangements for the management of the BID including the representation of owners of superior property interests in the management arrangements
and shall exercise the veto unless it is satisfied that the proposed BID arrangements are fair and equitable in relation to the manner in which the projects specified will be financed and shall have regard to any Codes of Practice issued by the Secretary of State.'.
No. 77, in
clause 53, page 22, line 11, after 'such', insert 'additional'.
No. 152,
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Until I looked at the clock just now, I had no idea how quickly time had passed this morning.
Mr. Curry: How time flies when you are enjoying yourself.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: My right hon. Friend takes the words out of my mouth. When I was burning considerable amounts of the midnight oil last night, I did not think that I would enjoy myself this morning, because I envisaged a turgid debate on non-domestic rates. Unfortunately, we shall have that debate this afternoon. At least the evil hour was postponed.
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We should try to dispose of BIDs this morning, if we possibly can. I intend to deal with this important group of amendments quickly, but it is necessary to probe the Government's intentions on clause 53, which is a nuclear option.
The primary legislation must stipulate a time limit within which a billing authority must decide whether it will veto a proposal. There should be certainty in that respect. Businesses and local authorities may invest significant time and effort in devising a BID proposal, so the Government must insist on a time limit for implementing a BID proposal. That can be assured only through the establishment of a statutory time frame.
Mr. Turner: As the local authority is likely to be closely involved and certainly should be able to discover the content of a BID proposal immediately before it is circulated for a ballot, and as it is impossible to change the proposal after it has been approved by a ballot, would my hon. Friend care to speculate on why the Minister has not permitted the local authority to veto the bid before the expense of a ballot is incurred?
Mr. Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is precisely the purpose of the amendments. If our amendments were to be carried, thus providing democratic legitimacy of the ballot, and more than 25 per cent. were to vote in favour of the proposal, many local people would be very aggrieved if, having gone to all the expense and trouble, the local authority then came along and vetoed the ballot. That is why I want to know under which circumstances the nuclear option will be used. I hope that I have answered my hon. Friend's point.
There are other matters on which I wish to question the Minister. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton said in a contribution some time ago that only ratepayers should be on the list for the ballot—I believe that that is what he said. However, there are many exceptions to that rule. For example, certain public bodies do not pay rates.
Mr. Syms: The Queen.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: I am not sure whether the Queen counts as a public body.
The Chairman: We certainly do not debate the Queen's financial affairs here.
Mr. Clifton-Brown: Public bodies such as schools do not pay rates.
It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.
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The following Members attended the Committee:
Griffiths, Mr. Win (Chairman)
Borrow, Mr.
Caton, Mr.
Clifton-Brown, Mr.
Cruddas, Jon
Curry, Mr.
Davey, Mr. Edward
Dean, Mrs.
Dobbin, Jim
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Mr.
Hall, Mr. Patrick
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Iddon, Dr.
Lepper, Mr.
Leslie, Mr.
Marsden, Mr. Paul
Mountford, Kali
Raynsford, Mr.
Sawford, Phil
Swayne, Mr.
Syms, Mr.
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Woolas, Mr.
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