Local Government Bill

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Mr. Goodman: I have greatly enjoyed the company of the Minister on the Committee. Indeed, I wish that I could have enjoyed more of his company in a certain circumstance. I wish that he had been present at surgeries that I have held in my constituency of Wycombe over the last year, so that he could have heard poorer constituents of mine asking for my help in obtaining a council house.

I am told that I have the largest proportion of Muslim voters in my constituency, which is a debt-free authority, of any Member of my party. Most of those voters originate from poor communities in Pakistan and Kashmir. They were poor when they arrived in Britain and they are still relatively deprived and socially excluded now. They seek my help in obtaining a council house, and in at least one case a constituent has told me that 10 people are sleeping under one roof and they need help to get council accommodation.

Column Number: 196

Will the Minister explain how those people will be helped by what my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge correctly describes as a ''grab'' by Government nationally on capital receipts that previously would have been available to my local council to build the council and social housing that my constituents need? As far as I can see, the policy will transfer to other constituencies money and resources that would otherwise have helped my poorer constituents. In some cases they are very poor.

Mr. Swayne: The Minister tried to reassure me by saying that that will apply only to right to buy. That is bad enough, but the clause refers to any housing land, which is defined as any land that has been subject to the duty to maintain a housing revenue account.

10.15 am

Mr. Goodman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point as it might have slipped my mind. As far as I can see there is no guarantee, or even the likelihood, that my constituency, unlike Dagenham, will gain through the Community Fund which might have compensated my constituents for the loss that they will experience if the clause stands part of the Bill.

Mr. Syms: My hon. Friend may have seem the film a few years ago in which Danny DeVito plays a corporate raider who really loves other people's money. Is this not an ''other people's money'' Government?

Mr. Goodman: My hon. Friend would be astonished if I my reply were anything but yes. In conclusion, I have one ward—it is being re-warded but as it stands it is Booker and Castlefield—which is among the top 20 per cent. of local authorities for child poverty. My constituents in that ward and in similar deprived wards in Wycombe will be hit by these proposals. I hope to get some reassurance from the Minister on this point. I simply do not see how I can receive any when the clause stands as it does.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 10, Noes 15.

Division No. 6]

AYES
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Curry, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Doughty, Sue Goodman, Mr. Paul
Hammond, Mr. Philip Pugh, Dr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Syms, Mr. Robert Turner, Mr. Andrew

NOES
Borrow, Mr. David Caton, Mr. Martin Cruddas, Jon Davey, Valerie Dean, Mrs. Janet Dobbin, Jim Gilroy, Linda Hall, Patrick
Iddon, Dr. Brian Lepper, Mr. David Leslie, Mr. Christopher Mountford, Kali Quinn, Lawrie Raynsford, Mr. Nick Sawford, Phil

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 62, in

clause 11, page 5, line 11, leave out from beginning to end of line 12.—[Mr. Davey.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 10, Noes 16.

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Division No. 7]

AYES
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Curry, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Doughty, Sue Goodman, Mr. Paul
Hammond, Mr. Philip Pugh, Dr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Syms, Mr. Robert Turner, Mr. Andrew

NOES
Borrow, Mr. David Caton, Mr. Martin Cruddas, Jon Davey, Valerie Dean, Mrs. Janet Dobbin, Jim Gilroy, Linda Hall, Patrick
Iddon, Dr. Brian Lepper, Mr. David Leslie, Mr. Christopher Mountford, Kali Quinn, Lawrie Raynsford, Mr. Nick Sawford, Phil Todd, Mr. Mark

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 3, in

clause 11, page 5, line 11, leave out from 'requiring' to 'of' and insert

'such amount as the Secretary of State shall specify, being not more than 20 per cent.'.—[Mr. Hammond.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 10, Noes 16.

Division No. 8]

AYES
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Curry, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Doughty, Sue Goodman, Mr. Paul
Hammond, Mr. Philip Pugh, Dr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Syms, Mr. Robert Turner, Mr. Andrew

NOES
Borrow, Mr. David Caton, Mr. Martin Cruddas, Jon Davey, Valerie Dean, Mrs. Janet Dobbin, Jim Gilroy, Linda Hall, Patrick
Iddon, Dr. Brian Lepper, Mr. David Leslie, Mr. Christopher Mountford, Kali Quinn, Lawrie Raynsford, Mr. Nick Sawford, Phil Todd, Mr. Mark

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment made: No. 25, in

clause 11, page 5, line 15, after 'of', insert 'an interest in'.—[Mr. Raynsford.]

The Chairman, being of the opinion that the principle of the clause and any matters arising thereon had been adequately discussed in the course of debate on the amendments proposed thereto, forthwith put the Question, pursuant to Standing Orders Nos. 68 and 89, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 16, Noes 10.

Division No. 9]

AYES
Borrow, Mr. David Caton, Mr. Martin Cruddas, Jon Davey, Valerie Dean, Mrs. Janet Dobbin, Jim Gilroy, Linda Hall, Patrick
Iddon, Dr. Brian Lepper, Mr. David Leslie, Mr. Christopher Mountford, Kali Quinn, Lawrie Raynsford, Mr. Nick Sawford, Phil Todd, Mr. Mark

NOES
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Curry, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Doughty, Sue Goodman, Mr. Paul
Hammond, Mr. Philip Pugh, Dr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Syms, Mr. Robert Turner, Mr. Andrew

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Question accordingly agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Hammond: On a point of order, Mr. Griffiths. The Minister told the Committee at the beginning of its deliberations that the Government intended to table a new clause or amendment to repeal section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947. Since then, the Deputy Prime Minister has announced to the House—on Tuesday—that he intends to table further-reaching legislation in relation to that Act. Have you had any indication, or could the Committee be made aware, of whether the Government intend to proceed with the repeal of section 19 during proceedings on this Bill, or whether Tuesday's announcement by the Deputy Prime Minister subsumes the Minister's earlier intention?

It is important to hon. Members and right hon. Members in all parts of the Committee that they should be aware as early as possible of additional business to be placed before it.

The Chairman: I have had no indication of what business may proceed in the coming weeks in the Committee.

Mr. Raynsford: Further to that point of order, Mr. Griffiths. For the Committee's information, may I make it clear that the Deputy Prime Minister's announcement on Tuesday that the Government intend to consult on additional powers in relation to the fire service will not involve any additional amendments being placed before the Committee? It is not our intention to make any of the changes outlined by the Deputy Prime Minister in the Local Government Bill.

No decision has been taken as to whether it might be appropriate for the proposed repeal of most of section 19 of the Fire Services Act to be effected by an amendment to this legislation, as originally planned, or whether it might form part of the new proposed legislation announced by the Deputy Prime Minister. There is no change to the current plan, but we would inform the Committee at the earliest opportunity if there were to be an alternative route for the section 19 repeal, which would have implications for easing the time pressures on the Committee.

Mr. Hammond: Further to that point of order, Mr. Griffiths. That debate will be of considerable interest to hon. Members in all parts of the Committee. I hope that the Minister will ensure that any such Government new clause or amendment is not tabled at the latest possible moment, effectively making it impossible for other Members to table amendments to it, as it would be unstarred for debate on the relevant occasion.

The Minister has been good in letting the Committee have draft regulations in good time. I hope that he will ensure that the same thing happens in relation to any such new clause.

The Chairman: I am sure that he will.

Mr. Davey: Further to that point of order, Mr. Griffiths. When we heard from the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this week, he suggested that the Government would be taking powers to themselves

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in any emergency legislation; in other words, centralising some powers, when we understand that the amendment for the repeal to be put to the Committee would have decentralised similar powers. I should like your advice, Mr. Griffiths. We know that the proposed legislation could take the opposite direction from that which the Committee might be asked to see. How would the Committee deal with it when there would be contradictory legislation coming before the House in a few weeks?

The Chairman: The two issues are totally separate. If the Government wished to introduce a provision in the Bill to decentralise and move down some of their authority, I hope that that would be acceptable to all members here. If they wanted to take some power to themselves on a separate issue to do with the fire service, there would be a consultation about it, so it does not need to detain the Committee any further.

Clause 12

Power to invest

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

10.30 am

Mr. Hammond: The Minister was suffering from premature something there. [Interruption.] I did not say dementia—I thought that the Under-Secretary was suggesting dementia. I have a simple question for the Minister about definition. Clause 12 states that a local authority may invest

''(a) for any purpose relevant to its functions under any enactment, or

(b) for the purposes of the prudent management of its financial affairs''.

I just want to probe the word ''invest''. I used to think that I knew what it meant, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has corrupted the word ''invest'', as has the Prime Minister.

Over the last five or six years, I have heard about the Government ''investing'' in nurses' pay, for example. Nurses' pay is a very worthy thing to spend money on, but by anyone's historic definition that was not an investment. An investment was the sinking of money into an asset that would yield a long-term return. In the good old days, that word would never have been used to refer to revenue spending, but the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have used the word differently over the last few years.

I therefore thought it important to ask the Under-Secretary to clarify what the relevant definition of ''invest'' is in clause 12. If it is the definition used by the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, the clause could be seen to be giving local authorities the power to ''invest'' in higher wages for their staff, for example, but I assume that that is not intended.

 

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Prepared 30 January 2003