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Mr. Heath: The Minister is being extremely helpful. I am glad that she is considering the issue further. Does she agree that it is hard to see how even minor offences—I mean lesser offences; they are quite important—under regulation would be excluded from the court of Gibraltar's jurisdiction under the Column Number: 149 clause? I am not sure how the clause makes that distinction. It seems simply to prevent any offence from being tried by a court in Gibraltar, provided that the offence is committed under the regulation that is part of the secondary legislation to be introduced.
9.45 amYvette Cooper: The clause simply gives the power to exclude matters from the jurisdiction of any court in Gibraltar under the regulations. It does not say that all matters will be excluded; that is certainly not the intention. It gives the power to exclude matters through regulations, so that they can be further explored before the regulations are finally drawn up and the regulations can set out exactly what will form part of the jurisdiction of which court. That would be done as part of the European parliamentary election regulations, and so would undergo the affirmative resolution procedure. The matter would return to the House for its consideration. It is purely a question of having the flexibility fully to explore the ramifications before setting out what should go to which court. Mr. Cash: I, too, find the Minister's explanation useful in throwing light on how the Government want the power to operate. I accept that it would be a power, and that the word is ''may'', not ''shall''. However, a problem arises in relation to the words
which is extremely broad. There would be a conferral of jurisdiction if we were to insert the word ''Gibraltar'' where the clause says
The clause continues:
in other words, any such matter connected with the election of MEPs. I find the Minister's remarks helpful. The Department clearly has some sort of blueprint that lists several problems that could arise as well as several matters that the Government believe they should exclude from the courts of Gibraltar where, for example, matters in question would affect the combined region as a whole, without infringing on any of the rights of the citizens of Gibraltar. The Minister used the phrase, ''At the heart of the matter'', or words to that effect. It may be that some sensible discussion can emerge from this exchange, but I sense that there is somewhere lists of things that would be included as well as excluded. The question is whether that blueprint bears examination when it is applied to the criteria that we have been discussing in relation to the rights of the people of Gibraltar and their courts. Sight of that blueprint would probably help to ease the discussions. The Committee has grown in my opinion since I started out on this venture. As I have said repeatedly, I am increasingly conscious of the fact that I speak for individuals in Gibraltar—as does the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome—who have no direct voice in this matter. It is therefore important for us, albeit vicariously, to do our best to try to get to the bottom of it. Column Number: 150 The Chairman: That was a very long intervention. Mr. Cash: I was indeed. I am sorry. The Chairman: I must appeal to all hon. Members, but especially to the hon. Gentleman, to curtail their interventions. Yvette Cooper: We have an outline of the matters that we would expect Gibraltar to deal with and those that we would expect to be dealt with in the UK courts. We have already discussed that with the Government of Gibraltar. I am happy to write to hon. Members and set out further details of what we expect. I am also keen to examine the issue further to see if it is possible to clarify it any more before the primary legislation completes its passage through the House. However, I must give a word of caution: it may not be possible to do that because of the complexity of election legislation, election rules and so on. It would be deeply unfortunate if we found later that one particularly complicated aspect of the law meant that the matter could not be dealt with in the Gibraltar courts and needed to be dealt with in the UK courts, but that we had not set up a power to enable us to act in that way. That could cause difficulties, given the timetable of the 2004 elections. We need to be aware of the possibility that I have outlined. It is always possible to draw up lists, but it is always difficult with electoral legislation, in my experience, to be confident that a list is comprehensive. That is why the clause is drawn relatively broadly at this stage. However, as I have said, I am happy to share with hon. Members more information about the detail of our intentions. We expect further discussions with Gibraltar about the matter, and to clarify and refine it. More work is needed to reach a clear view of the way in which the jurisdiction would be divided, and the regulations drawn up. For the reasons I have given, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn. Mr. Heath: The Minister's answer has been extremely helpful, and it covered a lot of ground on questions that I was concerned about. I hope that she will examine the clause again, because it is rather clumsily worded. It gives the strong impression that no jurisdiction is to be conferred on Gibraltar; the fact that Gibraltar is not mentioned in proposed new paragraph (b), which is the permissive paragraph, but that Gibraltar alone is mentioned in proposed new paragraph (c), which is the exclusive one, is bound to cause misapprehensions. I agree with the Minister that it may be very difficult to draft primary legislation that covers all the eventualities in the way that she suggested. It would certainly be helpful to me, and, I suspect, to other hon. Members, to be able to see what the Government intend, subject to their further deliberations with the Government of Gibraltar. However, on the basis of what the Minister has said, I have no intention of pressing my amendment. Mr. Cash: In the light of all that has been said, it seems to me that there is a way to deal with the matter, certainly with some discussion. There is no question of the people of Gibraltar expecting to drive the whole Column Number: 151 jurisdiction relating to elections relevant to the combined region as a whole. That is the key point. On the other hand, they do not want anything to happen to the detriment of their jurisdiction in Gibraltar, on genuinely Gibraltarian matters. There is a balance, and the Minister has given us enough information to persuade us that the matter is being taken seriously, that discussions will continue, and that at some point the drafting will reflect that, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 2003 | Prepared 16 January 2003 |
