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Standing Committee A
Tuesday 14 January 2003
(Afternoon)
[Mr. David Taylor in the Chair]
Clause 11
Power to make consequential etc provision
Amendment proposed [this day]: No. 50, in
2.30 pm
Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
The Chairman: I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:
Amendment No. 55, in
Amendment No. 59, in
Amendment No. 62, in
The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Yvette Cooper): It is a pleasure to welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Taylor.
The amendments set out provisions in respect of consultation before the orders could be made. I shall say why the clause is as drafted. We put most of the detail in secondary legislation, because many of the provisions that need to be changed in order to allow Gibraltar to participate and be part of the same region in the European parliamentary elections are already in secondary legislation. It was therefore appropriate to make the changes through further secondary legislation. Moreover, much of the complicated detail would not be appropriate in the Bill. That is why we are making the changes by order.
We are aware from the meetings and the correspondence with the Government of Gibraltar in the past year that they welcome the opportunity in the Bill to give the people of Gibraltar a say in European democracy. They made it clear, too, that they recognise that because they will be treated as part of an elected UK region for these purposes, it is essential
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hat UK electoral law is applied as uniformly as possible to Gibraltar. The Government of Gibraltar and the House of Assembly want to play their part in ensuring that the necessary legislation is put in place and that the system works effectively. There is scope within the existing provisions for that to happen. Discussions are still taking place and consideration is still being given to the changes that it might be possible to make through changes to Gibraltar law by the House of Assembly and the Government of Gibraltar. What changes will need to be made to the detail of UK electoral law through this Parliament is also being considered. However, we are keen that whenever possible changes can take place through the House of Assembly and Government of Gibraltar in Gibraltar.
At our last meeting with the Government of Gibraltar on 17 December the officials had a constructive and detailed discussion about the scope of the provisions. The meeting considered whether it was possible to include something in the Bill to reflect more clearly the fact that Gibraltar, too, would contribute to the creation of the legislation. We have given an undertaking to consider the matter, and if necessary we will introduce amendments at a later date.
Mr. William Cash (Stone): The Minister will no doubt be familiar with the situation in the Falklands, where such a contribution has not only been invited by the Government but has been acted upon. Some people would regard it as peculiar if that applied to the Falklands but not to Gibraltar.
Yvette Cooper: As I have clearly said, we believe that if it is possible for the Government of Gibraltar and the House of Assembly in Gibraltar to make the changes, it would be better for them to do so. That would be appropriate, as it is their law, and because it would mean that this House could confine itself to the issues that are relevant to UK law and to the business of the House.
The amendments ask for consultation with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar on which matters may be legislated in the House of Assembly in Gibraltar and which may be legislated in Parliament. That discussion and consideration is already taking place. We do not need to wait for the Bill to make that happen. As I said, we want the Government of Gibraltar and the House of Assembly to be able to legislate whenever possible. The amendments are unnecessary because they refer to work that is currently under way.
I also made it clear that we are prepared to consider further amendments, in the light of the Chief Minister's request, to see whether the Bill could include anything else to ensure that it is clear to everyone that the Government of Gibraltar are playing a role in the process.
Mr. Cash: The Minister indicated that discussions are being held and that some progress, albeit imperceptible and undisclosed, has been made. As she says, this is a complicated matter. However, there is also a matter of principle, which gravitates around the fact that subsidiary legislation, such as the order-making power and the amendments made to the 2002
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Act, enables the Lord Chancellor to make direct legislative provision for Gibraltar on such domestic matters as the registration of parties, party donations and broadcasting, which are all in the clause.
Under clause 17(3), the part would be taken to modify, exclude or apply
''any provision of the law of Gibraltar''.
I have also suggested that proposed new section 7(4A)(c) under clause 21 be excluded altogether.
Clause 16 will enable the Lord Chancellor to do many of the things that one would reasonably expect Gibraltarian legislation to do. There is an understanding in Gibraltar that Gibraltarian legislation would have to be agreed with London to ensure uniformity of regime throughout the combined region, so there is no suggestion that the Gibraltarians will want to do something that is completely inconsistent with the uniformity of law, which the new region and new Gibraltarian voters will need.
None the less, the powers that are being taken to modify, exclude or apply any provision of the law of Gibraltar are draconian. Such powers have not been taken for 50 years. This is a backward step, which shows the reluctance with which the Government have proposed the provision. They were driven to propose it because of the Denise Matthews case, the spirit in which the matter has been conducted, and the failure adequately to consult the Chief Minister and others in Gibraltar. The Minister seems to dispute that, but that will be on the record and I will get further and better particulars of the degree of consultation that she claims has taken place. They certainly did not see a copy of the Bill before it was produced. People in the Falklands were invited to produce proposals for their constitutional changes and they were given a fair wind. One is bound to ask why, in relation to the important and immediate problem of Gibraltar, the Government takes such a position on that issue. The answer to that problem lies in the Brussels process and the dispute with Spain.
Under no circumstances could I believe that Parliament would ever countenance the idea of acquiescing in Spain's demands. The ramshackle discussions on the issue of sovereignty, which bit the dust, have been scuppered by the democratic wishes of the people of Gibraltar. The issue is whether the constitution would be made by a balanced and tolerant consultative process between the parties—one could say through a process of natural justice, which I advocate—and whether it would cater appropriately. That has been stated categorically by the Chief Minister in his discussions with me, which would indicate that the questions can be resolved if there is the will to do so. I have to say, without being the slightest bit curmudgeonly, that the de minimis approach adopted by the Government is too negative. Let us our raise our eyes to the hills and question whether it is possible to be a little more constructive and recognise the fact that the people of Gibraltar have a right to be properly consulted.
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The Minister may know about the Gibraltar constitution order 2001. The present situation, which is directly relevant and important, is that the prescribed constitutional arrangements would be overridden by the exclusion, modification or application of law by the order-making powers, and that is geared to arrangements that currently exist under the Gibraltar constitution order 1969.
The draft Gibraltar constitution order was prepared by the House of Assembly and arose out of the discussions that took place at the same time as the Anglo-Spanish discussions, which were put in place by Mr. Caruana. The object of those was to modernise the constitutional relationship of Gibraltar with the United Kingdom. As a result of much detailed consideration, the Gibraltarian select committee on constitutional reform completed its draft in December 2001. That was submitted to the House of Assembly and Opposition parties for comment, published on 23 January 2002 and approved by the House of Assembly on 23 February. That draft has not been given a fair wind by the UK, despite what happened in the Falklands. It is outrageous that when Gibraltar brings forward such proposals it is faced with a complete blockage. I have no doubt that the Minister will receive advice presently with regard to some of those points, since pieces of paper are being passed around the Room.
The amendments contain the very points that one would have hoped and expected to have been dealt with by the Lord Chancellor, when he voluntarily made his proposals, and in consultation with the Chief Minister and others in Gibraltar, including the Leader of the Opposition. The key words, on which I shall concentrate, are that
''The Committee's amendments''—
the ones proposed by the people of Gibraltar—
''are 'such as would maximise the self government of Gibraltar by the people of Gibraltar, whilst retaining British sovereignty and close links with Great Britain'.''
Nothing could be more constructive and helpful than that.
2.45 pm
I want to correct an extremely seriously mistake that I made this morning. I confess to having made the most serious historical error when referring to the conquest of Gibraltar by Admiral Rook. I was corrected when I said that it happened 1702—I was told that it was 1704—but it is much worse that. It was not a colony by conquest, but a colony by cession—[Hon. Members: ''Utrecht.''] Because of the treaty of Utrecht. I am glad to have received a unanimous shout of approval from the entire Committee. Without elaborating, it does make a difference.
The Select Committee's report continues:
''The Committee's approach has been guided by its unanimous view that reform of the constitution should achieve both a suitable modernisation of the relationship with the United Kingdom . . . and that these reforms should, when and if accepted by the people of Gibraltar in a referendum, bring about its decolonisation of Gibraltar through the exercise of the right of self-determination by the people of Gibraltar, and Gibraltar's de-listing from the UN's list of Non Self-Governing Territories under Article 73(e) of the Charter.''
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Self-governance, in effect, is a recurring theme of the amendments, so one can hardly be surprised at the degree of concern, which I share, at the disproportionate imbalance in the centre of gravity of the proposals before Parliament today.
That imbalance clearly indicates not only a massive reluctance to accept the principles that the Government have been driven to put into the proposals, but that they have no understanding of the aspirations of the people of Gibraltar for a greater degree of self-government—with the caveat that they want to retain British sovereignty. Their wish for close links with Great Britain lies at the heart of the problems that I put to the Committee.
It is terribly important that we recognise that, when the Government legislate in that way, they create unnecessary problems. It does not help. It will not resolve the issues. I offer a word of advice to the Minister. We should return to a more constructive and useful discussion between the Government and the people of Gibraltar. I sense from what she says—I am not being negative in contending this—that the proposal is for a greater degree of open and fair discussion, on complementary terms, between the Chief Minister and the Government. As we make our way through the rest of the proposals, and in subsequent stages, it would be very helpful to get that on the right footing,
I hope that the Committee will be rewarded with some movement. From what the Minister has said, we are seeing a slight glimpse of that. She has not yet gone far enough, but perhaps as we proceed we will get further and better indications that the people of Gibraltar, the Chief Minister and others are being properly heard.
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