European Parliament (Representation) Bill

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Mr. Cash: I beg to move amendment No. 48, in

clause 10, page 5, line 28, after 'Commission', insert

'who shall consult the Boundary Committee of their Commission and/or the Boundary Commissions'.

The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 52, in

clause 11, page 6, line 19, after 'Commission', insert

'who shall consult the Boundary Committee of their Commission and/or the Boundary Commissions'.

Amendment No. 61, in

clause 16, page 9, line 13, after 'Commission', insert

'who shall consult the Boundary Committee of their Commission and/or the Boundary Commissions'.

I remind hon. Members that we have already touched on the issues in the amendments but have not discussed them specifically, so I anticipate and will insist on a tight debate.

Mr. Cash: I entirely endorse your comments, Mr. Cook, and will do my best to comply. We have discussed the principle and it is important for the Minister to be given the opportunity to reply.

I simply want to put on the record that the amendments relate to clauses 10, 11 and 16. In each case, the object of the exercise is to ensure that the Electoral Commission has an obligation to consult in the context in which I used the word earlier, but also, as a matter of principle, properly to consult on matters that arise in the context of those clauses. That is a slightly different state of affairs from that which we discussed previously in that we were discussing the Lord Chancellor's order-making powers. We are now dealing with the impact on Gibraltar and the different places in the combined region. There is a list in section 1 of the European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002, so we know what it comprises and that questions relating to Northern Ireland and Scotland and so on need to be taken into account. The amendment is a spur to the Electoral Commission so that we can be sure that the whole process is dealt with as comprehensively as possible.

Yvette Cooper: Many of the same arguments apply to the amendment as to the earlier groups of amendments that we discussed, and the same issues apply to Gibraltar as to making a decision about the number of MEPs.

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First, nothing in the Bill prevents the Electoral Commission from consulting the boundary committees and commissions should it so choose. Secondly and perhaps more importantly, it is not clear what relevance the considerations of the boundary commissions or committees will have in the choice of which region Gibraltar should be included with. The boundary commissions for each country of the UK make decisions only about Westminster parliamentary boundaries and that has no relation to parliamentary regional boundaries, so it is not clear how their considerations would apply to the decision on which region Gibraltar should be combined with. The boundary committees will not consider anything that is likely to have an impact on the boundaries of the regions and, therefore, on which region Gibraltar should be part of during the next couple of years. As I set out in the earlier discussion, recommendations to change county boundaries can be made only if there is express instruction from the Secretary of State. There is no such instruction to recommend changes to those county boundaries so that is not under consideration and it is not likely to change before the 2004 elections.

Mr. Cash: The Minister has a rather engaging habit of answering some questions by simply stating the position, rather than giving a reason for her argument. The fact that the Secretary of State has the role of issuing instructions with regard to county regions does not answer the question whether there are issues relating to the role of a boundary commission or committee with respect to the area of that county and its possible impact on others. She seems to be saying that there is no mechanism, other than through local government and with respect to normal general elections, to allow the boundary commissions to be involved.

Yvette Cooper: I am saying that the Electoral Commission can consult the boundary commissions and committees if it chooses to, but it is not appropriate to include in the Bill that it must, because it is not clear that there is anything that the boundary commissions or committees are currently considering that is relevant to the Electoral Commission's decision. The boundaries of the regions are not about to change. They are clear. They are not currently being considered by the boundary committees or the boundary commissions. Indeed the boundary commissions would never look at anything that was likely to impact on the boundaries of the European parliamentary region, because they just look at the Westminster parliamentary boundaries.

I would be happy to accept the amendment if the boundary commissions were considering something that was fundamental to the decision about which region Gibraltar should be combined with, but they are not doing anything at the moment that is central or even relevant to that decision. If the Electoral Commission takes a different view or if the boundary commissions or committees themselves take a different view it will be open for them to be consulted as part of this process. That is right.

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However, I do not see the need to put them in the Bill as consultees when I have not heard any argument why they would add something significant and substantial in the next period, given that the decision about which region Gibraltar has to be combined with has to be taken in time for the 2004 elections.

That is another significant issue. Even if the boundary committees were considering changes to county boundaries that would have a knock-on effect on the regional boundaries, the Electoral Commission would still have to take its decision at one point. It could not simply anticipate what might happen in the future if decisions have not been taken. For those reasons we should reject the amendments. I completely accept that consultation on which region Gibraltar should be combined with should be as wide as possible. The Electoral Commission would accept that too. It would take its responsibilities very seriously. However, I do not see the need to add the reference to the boundary commissions or committees to the Bill.

Mr. Cash: In the light of those remarks and in the hope and belief that the Minister's views will be communicated to the Electoral Commission, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11

Power to make consequential etc provision

Mr. Cash: I beg to move amendment No. 50, in

clause 11, page 5, line 34, at end insert

'; provided that no such order shall be made until the Secretary of State has consulted the Chief Minister of Gibraltar as to what matters may be legislated in the House of Assembly in Gibraltar and what matters may be legislated in Parliament and thereafter such matters as the Secretary of State may by order prescribe to be legislated in the House of Assembly may be so legislated.'.

The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 55, in

clause 12, page 6, line 44, after 'Commission', insert

'and the Chief Minister of Gibraltar'.

Amendment No. 59, in

clause 16, page 8, line 43, at end insert—

'provided that no such regulation shall be made until the Secretary of State has consulted in accordance with section 11(1) and it has been determined in which legislature which matters are to be legislated'.

Amendment No. 62, in

clause 17, page 9, line 16, after 'section 16', insert

'; provided that no such regulation shall be made until the Secretary of State has consulted in accordance with section 11(1) and it has been determined in which legislature which matters are to be legislated.'.

Mr. Cash: We had a wide-ranging discussion about the relationship between Gibraltar and the United Kingdom and the Governor, and the constitutional implications of that, but we did not consider what lies behind it, which is the manner in which the order that is made by the Lord Chancellor will impact on the relative functions of the House of Assembly as compared with this House. The point that I made

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about the constitutional status of Gibraltar is not just theological; it is also about the manner in which legislation is passed by reference to the wishes of the people of Gibraltar. On the last provision but one, I made it clear that there are serious concerns, which we express and which are felt in Gibraltar itself, about the intrinsically colonial nature and mentality that lie behind the measures. This amendment is also directed at that point.

As I said, it is not only the people who are being enfranchised; the principle of overriding importance for Gibraltar is that both the people and the territory are enfranchised. If one enfranchises the territory, one must inevitably accommodate its legal and constitutional status and institutions. Otherwise, one is simply left with tagging on the people. That is not an intrinsic part of a proper constitutional process, but a de minimis operation that does not reflect the wishes of the people in terms of their legislative decision making. After all, the people who are elected to the House of Assembly in Gibraltar are elected as representatives of the people of Gibraltar.

The albeit small population of Gibraltar has created the most enormous stir about what has been going on in that part of Europe. They have resolutely refused to accept being part of Spain. The fact that there happen to be only a few of them, as with so many rebellions, does not mean that they cannot make a disproportionately large impact on the extent to which the democratic process moves forward. I can think of one or two personal examples, but I can also think of some of the problems coming up for the Government over the war in Iraq.

It would be a great mistake to imagine that, just because the people of Gibraltar are not numerous, they could not and have not demonstrated that they can punch above their weight. They have done extremely well, and I pay tribute to the Chief Minister, Mr. Caruana, for the manner in which he has conducted the defence of his people's interests. That is a remarkable illustration of my point.

11.15 am

All comes down to what happens when the legislation is considered. I was glad to hear the Minister say that, as we proceed, opportunities may arise for further amendments and for reconsidering the balance between what should be determined in the House of Assembly and what in the UK Parliament. I have already argued that under the constitution order now in force in Gibraltar, elections are an internal domestic matter. We debated that earlier and no controversy remains: it is a fact. The question of what should be legislated in the House of Assembly and what in this Parliament goes to the heart of the constitutional balance between the UK and Gibraltar.

It is unexceptionable that when the order-making power is processed, a proper degree of consultation—the amendment refers to the Secretary of State, but the Lord Chancellor may be more likely in the current circumstances—must take place. No order should be made by the Lord Chancellor until he has

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''consulted the Chief Minister of Gibraltar as to what matters may be legislated in the House of Assembly in Gibraltar and what matters may be legislated in this Parliament and thereafter''—

this is important—such matters as the Lord Chancellor

''may by order prescribe to be legislated in the House of Assembly may be so legislated.''

Without the amendment, consultation might take place, but someone could argue that it was ultra vires because the UK Parliament introduced the Bill, overriding the proper functions of Gibraltar. It would not then be open to the House of Assembly to make the legislative arrangements that flowed from the order—and we want to avoid that.

Amendment No. 55, which relates to clause 12, would include the Chief Minister of Gibraltar in consultation with the Electoral Commission. Under clause 11, the Lord Chancellor has extraordinarily wide powers: he may

''by order make such provision as he considers necessary or expedient''—

one cannot go much further than that—

''in consequence of, or in connection with, the inclusion of Gibraltar in an electoral region for the purposes of European Parliamentary elections.''

The width of those powers and the uncertainty about whether the House of Assembly would be allowed to legislate—as a territory with a right to make its own electoral law under its own constitutional arrangements, I believe that it should—make it necessary to establish where the line will be drawn between this House and the House of Assembly.

Amendment No. 59 relates to clause 16 and deals with regulations under sections 13 to 15, which make a stack of provisions for electoral registration and voting in Gibraltar. That goes to the heart of the issues that I have raised about where the line should be drawn.

The Lord Chancellor's list of regulations in clause 16(1) run the gamut of electoral law. If Gibraltar is to be part of a combined region, I understand the Minister's point about the necessity of there being a degree of compatibility with our electoral law; it would be extraordinary if that were not the case. We do not have the time, nor is it necessary, to go into detail about every permutation that could arise, but the people of Gibraltar, the Chief Minister and those who are familiar with their constitutional arrangements know where the line can be drawn with regard to the law. Therefore, I take the Minister's word that she will guarantee that any amendments that may be proposed to strike a balance between what will properly be dealt with in Gibraltar and what will be dealt with in the UK Parliament will be debated before the Bill completes its passage through this House, certainly on Report, as the final decision on the Bill should not be left to the House of Lords, which is an unelected body. The matter should be resolved in the spirit of proper consultation between Government and Opposition Front Benches. Perhaps the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome may care to comment on that. There is time to deal with the matter and we should be given the opportunity to

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consider and assess the amendments on the Floor of the House of Commons, not be bounced along on Lords amendments.

 

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Prepared 14 January 2003