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Ms Blears: I shall give way to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield.
Mr. Grieve: Will the Minister reassure us on a further point? The Government's response to the report refers
to the fact that recent Court of Appeal judgments have resulted in convictions being set aside, but paragraph 21 says:
- "Clearly, the circumstances of these cases do not imply that other convictions are unsafe"—
Ms Blears: I assured the hon. Gentleman that we would look into that in more detail to see what can be strengthened. I do not want to speculate on what those cases might or might not tell us about any part of the chain of investigation.
Mrs. Dean: Paragraph 33 of the Government's response to the Committee's recommendations is on audio and visual recording of witness statements. It says:
- "if it were explained to a witness that the recording may prevent cross-examination to the effect that, for example, the officer led the witness, they may themselves see the advantage in this approach."
Ms Blears: My hon. Friend makes an important point. I was about to deal with that because it was raised by virtually every hon. Member. I am happy to undertake to reconsider the issue because such cases are sensitive and often have different characteristics. We have a well established system of recording interviews on video. That is part of our general criminal law approach. As my hon. Friend said, there may be good reasons why a recording would be in the interests of the person giving evidence. It might, perhaps, prevent them from being subject to further allegations about the veracity of their statement. There is always the issue of resources, however.
The hon. and learned Member for Harborough made an important point on access to records. He will know that there was a minimal system of record keeping prior to the Children Act 1989. Fewer requirements were placed on people who ran care establishments to provide individual reports and records. The child abuse investigations inter-agency guidance has a section on the need to have access to records. Appendix E sets out a robust framework for record keeping as a result of the 1989 Act. It provides that records must be kept for 75 years after the birth of a child or for 15 years if a child dies before the age of 18. There are also strict legal requirements in the various sets of regulations passed after the 1989 Act to ensure that records are kept in future. In relation to past events, the records will sometimes be less than perfect and inadequate, but future record keeping has to be robust.
Compensation is important. The guidance has a section on that. It provides that agencies have to establish a policy on how they are going to
- "deal with questions of potential financial compensation for victims, to clarify that members of the investigative team should not instigate any discussion of the issue and should avoid discussing it if it is raised by any victims or witnesses in the course of the investigation."
The senior investigating officers handbook, together with the guidance, give us a robust framework. I would not want to belittle the report's recommendations in any way. We agree with the Committee on a number of significant things, and we want to consider strengthening parts of the guidance and putting in place safeguards for everyone in the system. We are certainly not, as was suggested, complacent, lofty or dismissive of the report.
A general point was made about the use in the criminal justice system of "similar fact" evidence. It would be a retrograde step to go back to having to use striking similar evidence. It is right that these matters are put before the court and the jury has the opportunity to weigh the evidence and reach a conclusion on that basis. It is therefore important that that information should be made available, and is not eliminated before the allegations can be ventilated in court. The Crown Prosecution Service has a crucial role to play in that process by sifting information. It already has two tests—whether or not a prosecution is likely to succeed, and whether or not it is in the public interest. Those well-established tests serve our criminal justice system extremely well indeed, and help us to ensure that justice is done.
There are a range of other recommendations in the report, some of which we are happy to accept, although there are others with which we disagree. However, I should like to reassure every hon. Member who has participated in our debate, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas), who has done an immense amount of work and demonstrated commitment, tenacity and determination, that I take these matters extremely seriously. Having only assumed my post in the past few days, I will take the opportunity to look further and in depth at the recommendations to see whether we can make further progress. We must remember that we have a responsibility to ensure that justice is done for the defendants and, crucially, for the victims, who have suffered the effects of abuse, perhaps for decades, and may have had a blighted existence. That is the extremely serious matter that we are considering today.
4.11 pm
David Winnick : With the leave of the House, I should like to say a few words.
I regret that, because of limited time, it was not possible for my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mrs. Dean) or the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob
Russell) to speak. They were both understandably anxious to do so, having played an active role in Committee, and their contributions would have been useful. I regret that my hon. Friends the Members for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) and for Sheffield, Heeley (Ms Munn) were not able to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker. Had they done so, perhaps they would have expressed a different point of view. It is unfortunate that, given the lack of time, our debate is not quite as balanced as it might have been. However, it has been a good debate on a controversial subject, which it is only right and proper to discuss on the Floor of the House. That has been done in the absence of political controversy—it is rather surprising that I should say that, is it not?The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) made a valid point about the recording of interviews, which we emphasise in our report and which was acknowledged, I am pleased to say, by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). In one or two instances, he more or less agreed with the Government's written response, but he also showed a generous attitude to the Select Committee report.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on her new appointment. I hope that I will not be misunderstood if I point out that her response was rather different from the Home Office's disappointing written response to our report and recommendations. I listened with great care when she said that there will be further discussions with police officers. I am pleased about that, and with her comments about compensation. I know that she made no promises of any kind, but she showed willingness to look at our recommendations. I would be grateful if she did so because, in her new position, she would not necessarily be confined to the Home Office response, which caused disappointment among members of the Select Committee.
My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) made a passionate speech. Indeed, as I told her, I cannot recall another occasion on which I heard such a passionate speech. She feels strongly about the subject—no one who listened to her today could doubt that. She has taken up a cause that would have been considered unpopular in the past, if not now, and she has done that with the utmost integrity. Not everyone would agree with her campaign, but she has campaigned consistently, regardless of popularity. I am pleased that there are hon. Members in all parties who are willing to accept such a role. My hon. Friend deserves full credit for her actions, even from those of us who cannot agree with all her views on the important subject.
I am pleased that the debate has taken place. Our report took some time to compile and we believe that the Government should seriously consider most of our recommendations. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will do precisely that.
Question deferred, pursuant to Standing Order No. 54(4) and (5) and Order [29 October 2002], until 6 pm.
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