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Mr. Dawson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Grieve: I cannot give way—I must get finished.
I want to cover two other specific matters before I return to the general. On extending anonymity to the accused, I accept that such cases cannot be separated from ordinary rape cases, but we return to the nub issue that, in the past, Parliament has considered it right to grant anonymity to the accused in certain sex offences. I am bound to say that that issue requires us to give it very careful consideration, because wrecking the lives of people who are accused and subsequently acquitted—which we are perpetrating in such cases—ought to give Parliament grave cause for concern. If things can be done in a way that does not prevent the proper administration of justice, there are powerful reasons to consider granting anonymity, not just in such cases, but in other similar ones.
The other thing is the working relationship between personal injury solicitors and the police. I entirely endorse the point that, with no win, no fee agreements—we warned about this when they were introduced—and
given the changes in the way in which funding is taking place for cases of negligence against, for example, local authorities where someone has been abused in care, there must be a risk of solicitors having an interest in the conclusion of the criminal proceedings that, unfortunately, influences their professional judgments. When, on top of that, police officers are full of zeal to see "justice" being done, there is a risk at that stage that people stop seeing the wood for the trees and start taking decisions that are contrary to the interests of justice.In conclusion—I am mindful that the Minister and the hon. Member for Walsall, North will want to respond—I return to a much more general point that worries me enormously. The report includes a reference to similar fact evidence and to what constitutes good evidence in securing a person's conviction. Indeed, that is highly pertinent, because the Criminal Justice Bill, to which the report refers, once again shifts the goalposts to facilitate the conviction of accused people. That is a deliberate policy adopted by the Government in the belief that courts are acquitting too many people who are guilty of offences. The problem is that while it is undoubtedly the case that these shifts in similar fact evidence, and the admissibility of previous convictions under the Criminal Justice Bill, will almost certainly see more guilty people being convicted, it is also absolutely certain that there will be more miscarriages of justice and innocent people will be wrongly convicted. Human justice is fallible, and such shifts cannot be carried out without the attendant consequences.
Picking up on my reply to the intervention of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson), Parliament faces a great problem: the public understandably want criminals convicted, which is very important, and people who commit horrible offences such as child abuse come in for great public opprobrium, which is understandable. There is a great momentum to want to see punishment meted out and justice done. We must always have it in mind, however, that miscarriages of justice happen, have happened, and, I am afraid, will continue to happen. We should be careful about bending traditional rules that have served us well in this country to achieve a result when the side effects may be as, if not more, reprehensible in terms of bringing the system of justice into disrepute. With that thought—
Mr. Dawson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Grieve: I apologise, but I cannot take the hon. Gentleman's intervention, as I want to hear the Minister. I look forward to her response on this extremely difficult subject.
3.57 pm
The Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing, and Community Safety (Ms Hazel Blears): First, I want to place on record my thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin). As various Members have said, it was a brave decision to pursue this inquiry in the Home Affairs Committee, and today's debate has been ably presented by my hon.
Friend the Member for Walsall, North (David Winnick), acting as transitional Chairman of that Committee.I want to deal with as many of the specific matters raised by hon. Members as possible. The overwhelming flavour of all the contributions, however, has been to show how difficult it is to get the balance right in this area. It involves a whole range of conflicting and competing interests of victims, witnesses and prosecutors, as well as some of the public policy issues raised by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) at the end of his contribution. This is one area in which the jigsaw of different interests has thrown up some difficult issues of judgment. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Singh) said that this was one of the most difficult matters with which he had had to deal because it was all about judgment.
It is entirely right that this difficult area of criminal investigation should be subject to intensive scrutiny by the public, the media and the Committee. We do not want to shy away from it. These cases represent some of the most challenging investigations for police forces, as they involve terrible crimes against vulnerable children, and the Committee's report was balanced in terms of the interests of various parties. We should not forget, however, that some of these children have suffered enormous distress and damage to their lives as a result of these events.
The added element of uncertainty and complexity created by the passage of an often considerable period of time makes the job of investigation harder. That is why it is even more important that the whole chain of evidence gathering has integrity and is as robust and rigorous as possible. In a reciprocal way, the longer ago that such events took place, the more rigorous the investigation process must be. I entirely acknowledge that the situation adds to difficulties faced by defendants or people under investigation, and we heard several passionate and committed contributions about the position of defendants. We must be clear about safeguards all round to ensure that justice is denied neither to complainants nor those who are investigated. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North that justice must be done.
Bob Russell: The hon. Lady says that justice must be done, so even if the Home Office is right that there is no evidence that many miscarriages of justice have occurred, will she accept that at least some miscarriages of justice have occurred? Does she acknowledge that a number of innocent men are in jail for serious crimes that they did not commit?
Ms Blears: Any single miscarriage of justice is an absolute tragedy for the people involved, and I take the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier). We are not saying that we can sweep aside miscarriages of justice just because they are few in number. Every single miscarriage of justice in this country is a tragedy for the person involved, his or her family and, indeed, the justice system, because miscarriages of justice reflect badly on it. Individual cases have been referred to the Criminal Cases Review
Commission and individual decisions will be made on such cases after consideration of new evidence and of how the cases were dealt with in court.
Mr. Dawson: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Ms Blears: I shall, but I want to get on to deal with specific matters that hon. Members raised.
Mr. Dawson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and I congratulate her on her new position. I commend the excellent and balanced Government response to a good report by the Select Committee. Will she attend to the needs of victims who will not have their cases heard in court for a variety of reasons? Will she do further work with victims' organisations to address their expressed need for an apology, a recording system and the development of compensation schemes and victim support?
Ms Blears: My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) has an excellent personal record of commitment to the issue and extensive personal experience, as does my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Ms Munn). They will know that one of the main thrusts behind our changes to the criminal justice system is the need to ensure that victims and witnesses are at the heart of the system and that it serves the needs of such people better in the future. I am happy to consider all the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre.
I turn to the use of dip sampling or trawling—various terms were used—in investigations. The fishing analogies seem to be increasing because we have heard about fishing expeditions and now trawling. I wait with interest to hear what kind of term will be used next, although I shall not make a huge issue of terminology. I am pleased that the Select Committee acknowledges that there is a need to conduct wide-ranging investigations. It does not want dip sampling to be prohibited but wants robust safeguards to be built in the process.
Hon. Members will know that the "Senior Investigating Officers Handbook for the Investigation of Historic Institutional Child Abuse" was published in November 2001. It is a lengthy document that provides excellent examples of good practice and the way in which investigations should be managed. Section 5 outlines how initial contact with possible victims should be established. It suggests the use of a letter drop that does not name individuals and tries to establish open contact that would not be prejudicial to later proceedings. The handbook contains good work.
I am happy to say today that further discussions should be held with the Association of Chief Police Officers to determine whether we can strengthen safeguards for such investigations to ensure absolutely that witnesses are not led and that allegations are not encouraged inappropriately.
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