Examination of Witness (Questions 100
WEDNESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2002
100. Overall, who are the gainers and who are
the losers in all this?
(Mr Livingstone) If we get a reduction in car travel
into central London and a better use of the buses, we will all
gain. Those people who have to use a car or a van will choose
to. They will be able to get around more reliably and quicker.
The problem we have at the moment is that a businessman in Canary
Wharf who has a meeting in the Hyde Park area cannot know within
half an hour how long it is going to take to get there. That is
not an acceptable situation for business. That is one of the reasons
why they have pushed this very hard. On legal advice I could not
justify the congestion charge on grounds of air quality because
we could not prove it would have an impact, but I suspect it might.
In London 1,600 people a year die prematurely because of air quality
from nitrogen dioxide and particulates. If we begin to see an
accelerated reduction of those, that would benefit all of us.
101. And the losers?
(Mr Livingstone) Those people who find they have to
bear the cost of this. It is not a taxthe economists who
look at this theoretically make it quite clearit is a pricing
mechanism. The pricing mechanism is there to influence the choices
people make in the same way as if you want to go and see the new
Harry Potter film in Leicester Square you will pay twice what
you do at Staples Corner. Everything you do in the centre of a
great world city tends to cost more.
102. That sounds eminently sensible, Mr Mayor,
until you realise that, for example, these buildings are cleaned
by ladies who come from Kennington who do not really have a great
deal of choice. They want a job; that is their choice.
(Mr Livingstone) Half of all the people who live in
inner London have no access to a car; they are totally dependent
on public transport. That is the poorest. Therefore for us there
is a big drive to improve the night bus. From my election to the
day this comes in we will have put on 20 new night bus routes,
reduced the night bus fares; it is the most dramatic expansion
there has ever been. We are putting in place, effectively, on
our main bus routes a 24-hour service.
103. So you would expect to put money back into
the areas where people are most damaged, in other words where
poor people are affected by your charges you would make a specific
effort to make sure that those areas benefited directly from the
(Mr Livingstone) In two ways. As your study of the
buses changes shape, we are in the middle of that expansion which
really does benefit the poorest people in London. Secondly, if
there is a reduction in congestion it is their children that breathe
the air, they have to put up with the noise and the traffic volumes.
Also, we have spent millions of pounds on traffic amelioration
works around the zone which we might have round to doing one day
anyhow, but we have accelerated because the congestion charge
104. You are answering one of our urban myths.
You have had everybody digging up the roads.
(Mr Livingstone) We would be monumentally stupid to
have put in the congestion zone and then decide to resurface the
Inner Ring Road. So we have resurfaced the Inner Ring Road so
it will not need doing for another eight years. Now if we can
just persuade Transco and BT to leave it alone we will be all
105. And you have not had a go at the traffic
(Mr Livingstone) No, no.
106. As you have just said, you have done all
these major road works. Large parts of London are not ground to
a halt but are not far off at the moment. Are you using this as
a comparison to judge whether the congestion charge works or not?
It feels to many people terribly convenient that London has seized
up this year and next year there will be a congestion charge.
They obviously think you are gerrymandering it deliberately in
order to be able to demonstrate that congestion has got better
after you have introduced the charge.
(Mr Livingstone) Like all the best conspiracy theories,
that is absolutely wonderful, but there is no substance for it.
The traffic light changes we have made are to 57 sets of lights
around Trafalgar Square. This has caused real problems, but the
reconstruction of Trafalgar Square is going to create a great
world Square, a dramatic improvement to the quality of life of
people in the area and huge improvements to pedestrians who will
be able to cross the Square in two minutes instead of nine minutes.
But it has been painful. I know that everyone supposes we are
going to keep these lights on and then switch them back on the
day the congestion charge comes in. The works will be finished
by Christmas and I will switch the lights backI suspect
with the entire London media there to record the eventso
you will all be able to see the lights will go back to normal
before Christmas and we will therefore be able to judge it.
107. Only the ones round Trafalgar Square?
(Mr Livingstone) Those are the only ones we have changed.
I know there is talk that all over London we have been changing
lights. In 1992and I will not remind people who was in
power then or who was London Transport Ministerthe government
of the day took a decision, after fatal accidents, to bring London's
pedestrian crossing phase in line with the national guidelines.
That programme started in 1992, it accelerated in 1998; it was
well underway before I was elected. The two big areas which have
caused further major problems are Vauxhall Cross and at Shoreditch
were planned by, I think, most probably John Prescott when he
first was elected as deputy prime minister and I suspect were
planned two years before this mayoral election. Road works of
that scale do not arise rapidly; they take a lot of planning.
Basically, the first big change that I have made in terms of road
works is going to be the congestion zone.
108. You are aware that Kate Hoey has raised
issues about problems for teachers and others. You have created
a system whereby a teacher at a parents' evening in Lambeth who
choses to drive home because she is scared of travelling on the
bus will be paying the same amount of money for the privilege
as a city banker in a chauffeur driven car? How can that be just?
And, given the fact that we have many people in the public services
or those on low incomes, how can they actually afford this?
(Mr Livingstone) Two things. I am trying to do a deal
with the London Schools Minister that we will bring in the child
fares limit up to 18 and in exchange they are looking at providing
a cheap travel subsidy for teachers in London. That will assist.
The other thing we have done, of course, is establish the Transport
Operational Policing Unit which has had a dramatic impact. People
are now seeing police getting on and off the buses. They are on
mountain bikes so they can get to where there is an incident rapidly.
I intend to propose in my budget for next year a doubling of expenditure
on policing on the buses. Closed circuit television will be installed
on all buses I think by the middle of 2005; that programme is
running. Police, on and off the buses, and also closed circuit
television on every bus. We want to make the buses safer.
109. I accept that the "do nothing"
option is not one we could consider, but this is pretty straightforward
to me. I feel this is flawed in the same way the poll tax was
flawed in terms of its enforcement. That is that people move around,
buildings do not. Car parking spaces, parking meters and car parks
do not move around but cars do. That brings us down to this issue
of enforcement. I was just wondering if you could take us through
what discussions you have had with people like the DVLA and the
police about enforcement. I am reliably informed by enforcement
officers that there are hundreds of vehicles registered in the
name of Michael Mouse or D Duck. How are you going to make those
people pay a congestion charge?
(Mr Livingstone) We estimate that one car in ten is
not licensed in London. In Newham that figure is 20 per cent.
Clearly people who have not registered their car are not paying
tax; they are most probably not going to bother to pay the congestion
charge. But bearing in mind that every time that car drives in
its number plate will come up, we can start to watch out for the
cars that are regular evaders. The mobile units which we will
have inside the zone will then clamp them. I think we have let
the contract for recovery of the fines in Europe. We are going
to pursue people relentlessly because the people that are not
registering their car, who will not pay this congestion charge
are most probably also guilty of other offences and we will get
them for those as well when we seize the car.
110. But the local authorities currently have
an enormous number of penalty charge notices that they are not
pursuing. They fail to make them stick to a large degree. How
are you going to be successful?
(Mr Livingstone) They do not have mobile units of
people running around with wheel clamps, clamping the cars. They
will be going round with up-to-date hand-held computers telling
them when this car has three or four outstanding charges it has
not paid. They will clamp the thing and in some cases they will
take it away and crush it.
111. You have consulted with the relevant government
agency about the efficiency of their computer system so they can
use them in the street?
(Mr Livingstone) If I could pass that one to Derek
Turner who is more up on the details of how many we are going
to crush and in what order.
112. We had this with private hire vehicle enforcement.
We were told there were going to be all these enforcement officers
but there were 20 for the whole of London. It was not the scheme
that it was dressed up to be.
(Mr Livingstone) It sounds to me we have a bit more
than that ready for the zone.
113. You have said that congestion charges will
have no impact whatsoever on the outer London boroughs. If, after
17 February, this is clearly not true and there is an impact,
will you then agree to make monies available in the next financial
year to let local authorities like my own introduce controlled
parking zones around local stations, for instance?
(Mr Livingstone) We would most probably be happy to
co-operate with you now in doing that; do not wait.
114. But you have said it will have no impact,
so there is no need to take measures now.
(Mr Livingstone) We would be amazed if there was an
obvious impact in your borough, but we are prepared to help. Last
year I increased the money available to boroughs for transport
measures by £10 million. I have increased it by £10
million in the coming year; I have guaranteed a £10 million
increase. We are gradually building up a phased program of works
so that old nonsense that we used to have of all the work being
done in February and March at the end of the financial year is
a thing of the past. We are getting a smoother implementation
of local boroughs' transport programs.
115. On that note, which will undoubtedly form
the basis of various press notices, can I say to you, Mayor, that
we shall look forward to seeing how your scheme works. I assume
you are using the same definition in congestion as the 10 Year
(Mr Livingstone) God knows. Ask Derek.
116. It is always nice to have informed witnesses,
Mr Mayor. Can I say it has been very pleasant, as always, to talk
to you and we shall follow your further career with great interest.
(Mr Livingstone) Coming to talk to you always reminds
me of what I miss.