Select Committee on European Scrutiny Thirty-Third Report


PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE RELATING TO THE REPORT

Wednesday 12 June 2002

Members present:

Mr Jimmy Hood, in the Chair


Mr Roger CasaleMr Mark Hendrick
Mr William CashMiss Anne McIntosh
Mr Michael ConnartyMr Angus Robertson
Mr Tony CunninghamMr Anthony Steen
Mr Wayne DavidMr Bill Tynan
Mr Jim DobbinMrs Angela Watkinson


* * *

The Committee deliberated.

Draft Report [Democracy and Accountability in the EU and the Role of National Parliaments], proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

Draft Report [Democracy and Accountability in the EU and the Role of National Parliaments], proposed by Mr William Cash, brought up and read, as follows:

We agree that this is a very important Report about the fundamental dilemma facing the EU and the Member States, including in particular the United Kingdom, namely how to reaffirm real democracy and accountability through the predominant influence of the electors and of the national Parliaments in the face of deeper and further integration. We agree with many of the proposals in the Report and particularly with the repudiation of the concept of "Ever Closer Union".

However, we disagree with many of the proposals, as indicated by our proposed amendments. We believe that "shared sovereignty" is a myth which will lead to further emasculation of the national Parliaments. Although co-operation between the Member States is desirable, the time has come for a clear shift back to the national Parliaments of the ultimate decision making process. We are consequently deeply disturbed by the notion of co-decision by the European Parliament. Decisions by QMV are increasingly conferred by Treaty on Member States and are now in the sphere of European Government and each decision has an impact on other Member States, taking forward the concept and practice of "Ever Closer Union" which the Report repudiates. The reality is that Governments, through their control over national Parliaments, do not allow decisions of the Council of Ministers to be overturned.

Furthermore, given the inadequacy of the scrutiny process in many of the Member States and their commitment to "Ever Closer Union" and deeper and further integration, particularly in the sphere of European Government, we believe that the voters in the United Kingdom and elsewhere are entitled to referendums where Treaties are made by their Governments and then endorsed by their national Parliaments, without free votes and without the full consent of the voters affected, through the use of the whip system or the party list system as the case may be. This needs reform. Giving more power to the European Parliament which seeks more integration and more European Government, e.g. through extension of co-decision, is not the solution to the democratic deficit.

We agree with the proposals in the Conclusion to the Report which would tend to increase openness in the legislative process and by enlarging, in principle, the role of national Parliaments, although we do not believe that the practice of subsidiarity has or will derogate from the movement entrenched in the concept of the acquis communautaire towards ever more European Government and "Ever Closer Union".

However, we believe that the Report does not adequately seize the nettle of how to radically restore democracy and accountability to the electors and to the national Parliaments, however useful it may be to improve the openness and transparency of the way the EU and the Commission operate. Openness and transparency are not a substitute for democratic control where vital national interests are at stake.

We therefore reaffirm the use of the veto through the national Parliaments or referendums (where necessary in the absence of Government action) as the primary means of last resort in holding Governments and the EU to account. This is in accordance with the ultimate objective of the Report and its terms of reference, which are aimed at restoring democracy and accountability in the UK and the EU and reconnecting the voters with the decisions which are taken on their behalf by Governments and by the institutions of the EU and through its procedures. As Maine correctly observed in his "Ancient Law" — "Justice is to be found in the interstices of procedure". This is within the general remit of the European Scrutiny Committee of the United Kingdom Parliament.

The EU is at a democratic watershed. The current and unrepresentative Convention, as the Report correctly points out, cannot be allowed to make the fundamental decisions which are needed to restore and reaffirm democracy and accountability. The problems are much deeper and require a reassertion of democratic political will by the electors of the nation states through their national Parliaments and, in default, by the democratic choice of the electors (irrespective of the Treaties and the acquis communautaire) through binding and full and fair referendums in each of the Member States on the practical, legal and constitutional implications of the concept of "Ever Closer Union" which the Report rightly repudiates.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Chairman's draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph. — (The Chairman.)

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "Chairman's draft Report" and insert the words "draft Report proposed by Mr William Cash". — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 1).


Ayes, 2Noes, 8
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Mark Hendrick
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Main Question put and agreed to.

Ordered, That the Chairman's draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Paragraph 1 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after 'include', to insert 'Romano Prodi's remarks on '. — (Mr William Cash.)[309]

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 2): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

An Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

A paragraph — (Mr Roger Casale) — brought up, read the first and second time, and added (now paragraph 2).

Paragraph 2 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, after 'IGC.', to leave out 'We believe national parliaments have considerable potential for reconnecting citizens and EU decision-making, and therefore strengthening the democratic legitimacy of the EU.' and insert 'National parliaments and national parliamentarians can play a key role in bridging the gap between remote EU institutions and the citizens of the EU Member States and in making EU decision-making more relevant and EU decision-makers more accountable.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question proposed, That the Amendment be made.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, after 'parliamentarians', to insert 'with a veto and referendums'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment to the proposed Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 3)


Ayes, 2Noes, 7
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Proposed Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 3).

Paragraphs 3 to 5 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 4 to 6).

Paragraph 6 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out 'potential' and insert 'role'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 4).


Ayes, 3Noes, 6
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mr Angus RobertsonMr Michael Connarty
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Bill Tynan


Another Amendment proposed, in line 8, to leave out 'giving new roles to' and insert 'reaffirming the roles of'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 5): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 7).

Paragraph 7 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 15, to leave out 'perceptions of' and insert 'role in'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 6): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph 7 agreed to (now paragraph 8).

Paragraphs 8 and 9 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 9 and 10).

Paragraph 10 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, at the end to add 'and to reaffirm the role of the national parliaments as the bedrock of democratic legitimacy'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 7): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 11).

Paragraph 11 read and agreed to (now paragraph 12 ).

Paragraph 12 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 11, after 'decision-making' to insert 'and intrusion into areas of governmental decision-making'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 8): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 13).

Paragraphs 13 and 14 read, amended and agreed to (now paragraphs 14 and 15).

Paragraph 15 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 8, to leave out 'might be given some' and insert 'should be given a'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 9): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 9, at the end to add 'National Parliaments could also agree on a broad set of principles and objectives which would define their role more clearly in the EU. The idea of such a broad strategic framework, or Charter, will be discussed later in the report.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 10).


Ayes, 3Noes, 6
Mr Roger CasaleMr Michael Connarty
Mr William CashMr Tony Cunningham
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 16).

Paragraph 16 read and amended.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 16, at the end to add 'which can only be achieved if the whip system or, where it applies, the party list system is changed so that national parliaments can achieve that influence.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 11): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3]

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 17).

Paragraphs 17 and 18 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 18 and 19).

Paragraph 19 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, after 'they' to insert 'propose to act and have'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 12): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 20).

Paragraph 20 read and agreed to (now paragraph 21 ).

Paragraph 21 read and amended.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 13, after 'procedures'.' to insert 'We agree'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 13): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 22).

Paragraph 22 read and amended.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 16, after 'State' to insert 'at an earlier enough stage'. — (Mr William Cash.)   

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 14).


Ayes, 3 Noes, 6
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mr Bill TynanMr Michael Connarty
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson


Another Amendment proposed, in line 17, at the end to add: 'We should review the scrutiny process in the House of Commons with a view to promoting openness and transparency.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 15): Ayes 3, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 10].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 23).

Paragraph 23 read and agreed to (now paragraph 24).

Paragraph 24 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 15, at the end to add 'The fact that so much European Union legislation has been removed from the influence of national parliamentarians and is now controlled to a very high degree by civil servants is a point not lost on European citizens. We believe it is at the heart of the democratic deficit. A number of practical measures can be taken to make COREPER more open and transparent. For example, national parliaments should be able to request information on legislation at any point of its passage through COREPER, or should receive briefings from COREPER officials.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 16)


Ayes, 4 Noes, 5
Mr Roger CasaleMr Michael Connarty
Mr William CashMr Tony Cunningham
Mr Angus RobertsonMr Wayne David
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Jim Dobbin
Mr Bill Tynan


Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 25).

Paragraphs 25 and 26 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 26 and 27).

Paragraph 27 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, at the end to insert 'but we consider that national parliaments must be involved in the avant projet stage so that their influence is not delayed until too late in the process. We note that the European Parliament is becoming involved at an earlier stage.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 17): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 6, at the end to insert 'This has democratic dangers.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 18): Ayes 3, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 14].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 28).

Paragraphs 28 to 31 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 29 to 32).

Paragraph 32 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out 'potential for involving' and insert 'need to involve'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 19): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 33).

Paragraph 33 read.   

Amendment proposed, in line 34, to leave out from 'We' to 'agreed' in line 6 and insert 'are disturbed that proposals relating to the Common Foreign and Security Policy are sometimes'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 20): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 34).

Paragraph 34 read and agreed to (now paragraph 35).

Paragraph 35 read.  

Amendment proposed, in line 12, at the end to add 'We are disturbed by the so-called "grounds of urgency".' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 21): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 36).

Paragraph 36 read and agreed to (now paragraph 37).

Paragraphs 37 and 38 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 38 and 39).

Paragraph 39 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, after 'agreement.', to insert: 'The project management approach will help in this regard, as a particular stage of the legislative process could be given over to scrutiny, whether individual parliaments choose to exercise their scrutiny rights/discharge their duty to scrutinise or not.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 22).


Ayes, 1Noes, 6
Mr Roger CasaleMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Another Amendment proposed, in line 13, at the end to insert: 'For the reasons given above, the project management approach should help to make sure that no member state is disadvantaged by the fact that its Parliament wishes to discharge its scrutiny role.' — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 23).


Ayes, 1Noes, 7
Mr Roger CasaleMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan
Mrs Angela Watkinson


Another Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 17 and 18 and add 'We do not believe that there are circumstances in which UK Ministers should breach the scrutiny reserve resolution, because the issues involved are often of critical political or legislative importance.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 24): Ayes 3, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 4].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 40).

Paragraph 40 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out 'would also help if more national parliaments were' and insert 'is essential that all national parliaments are'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 25): Ayes 3, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 4].

An Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 41).

Paragraph 41 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from 'Council.' to the end of line 7. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 26): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 42).

Paragraph 42 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from 'reserve.' to the end of line 15. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 27): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 43).

Paragraph 43 read and agreed to (now paragraph 44).

Paragraph 44 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 11, at the end to add 'We find this disturbing.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 28): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 45).

Paragraph 45 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from 'legislation.' to 'The' in line 5. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 29): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 46).

Paragraph 46 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, to leave out 'but we see no prospect of defining 'substantially revised'.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 30): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave out from 'urgency' to 'We' in line 13 and insert '(requiring unanimity)'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 31): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 14, to leave out 'might' and insert 'would'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 32): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 47).

Paragraphs 47 to 52 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 48 to 53).

Paragraph 53 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, at the end to add: 'We believe that national parliaments should be involved (as already the European Parliament is becoming involved, with its co-decision procedure which greatly increases its powers) in the avant projet stage of proposals.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 33): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 54).

Paragraph 54 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, after 'input' to insert 'as Jean Monnet originally proposed.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 34): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 55).

Paragraph 55 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 14, to leave out 'although some changes are clearly needed as regards the CFSP'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 35): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 22, at the end to add 'working to co-operate rather then to co-ordinate. We advocate the latter.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 36): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 56).

Paragraph 56 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, at the end to add 'We would add "but subject to national democratic control by national parliaments"'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 37): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 6, at the end to add: 'We call for an enhancement of the role of national parliaments as we move more towards a "Europe of the Nation-States"'. — (Mr Roger Casale.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 38).


Ayes, 2Noes, 6
Mr Roger CasaleMr William Cash
Mr Angus RobertsonMr Michael Connarty
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Bill Tynan
Mrs Angela Watkinson


Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 57).

Paragraphs 57 and 58 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 58 and 59).

Paragraph 59 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, after 'Chairmen', to insert 'We disagree'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 39): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 60).

Paragraph 60 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out from 'figure.' to the end of line 8 and add 'We do not accept the idea of an elected President'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 40): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 61).

Paragraph 61 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'There is therefore a fundamental need to preserve the veto for matters of national vital interest in the interests of democratic accountability through the national parliaments and the stability of the system.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 41): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 62).

Paragraph 62 read and agreed to (now paragraph 63).

Paragraph 63 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, after 'Treaties'.' to insert 'We believe that unanimity is essential where a national parliament regards a matter as being in the vital national interest and that procedures are needed for scrutiny and decision by those national parliaments to be made effective.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 42): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 64).

Paragraph 64 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, after 'sense' to insert 'provided that national parliaments have the last say'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 43): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 65).

Paragraph 65 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 17, at the end to add 'However, we re-emphasise the concept of co-operation rather than co-ordination and the need to preserve the veto.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 44): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 66).

Paragraph 66 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 17, to leave out 'Citizens' and insert 'Voters'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 45): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 67).

Paragraph 67 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out 'We do not share that view'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 46): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

An Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 68).

Paragraph 68 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, at the end to add 'We believe that the time has come for the Commission to be reduced to that of a secretariat and for its legislative role to be removed.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 47): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 69).

Paragraph 69 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 11, at the end to add 'The question however remains, on what basis does the unelected Commission claim the right to decide essentially political matters?' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 48): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 70).

Paragraph 70 read and agreed to (now paragraph 71).

Paragraph 71 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 11, at the end to add 'but we reiterate that it should no longer perform legislative or political functions although its role as the guardian of the Treaties is defensible.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 49): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 72).

Paragraph 72 read and agreed to (now paragraph 73).

Paragraph 73 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'We agree.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 50): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 74).

Paragraph 74 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, at the end to add 'We disagree.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 51): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 75).

Paragraph 75 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 18, after 'UK.' to insert 'We agree that the Commission President should not be elected'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 52): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 76).

Paragraphs 76 to 79 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 77 to 80).

Paragraph 80 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, after 'accountability', to insert 'which is gravely deficient'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 53): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 81).

Paragraph 81 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 8, to leave out 'in which we find much to welcome'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 54): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 15, to leave out 'the EP, and for any political and legislative' and insert 'for any'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 55): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 17, after 'clear' to insert 'administrative'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 56): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 17, to leave out 'as in respect of state aids and competition' and add 'but without political or legislative competence for which democratic capacity is exclusively required.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 57): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 82).

Paragraph 82 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 13, at the end to add 'We agree.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 58): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 83).

Paragraph 83 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out 'but, given the concerns of the smaller Member States, we see no prospect of the IGC deciding that the Commission's right of initiative should be removed.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 59): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

An Amendment made.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, after ' States.' to insert 'This must be overcome, as it can be.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 60).


Ayes, 2Noes, 6
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson


Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out from 'States' to the end of line 9. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 61): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 84).

Paragraphs 84 and 85 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 85 and 86).

Paragraph 86 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, after 'role' to insert 'although the balance must be shifted back to the national parliaments with removal of the power of co-decision.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 62): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 12, after 'own' to insert 'in their vital national interests'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 63): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 87).

Paragraph 87 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end to add 'We do not accept the co-decision procedure.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 64): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 88).

Paragraph 88 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 12, at the end to add 'This is unacceptable.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 65): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 89).

Paragraph 89 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave out 'so extensively'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 66): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 90).

Paragraph 90 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 12, to leave out from 'areas.' to the end of line 14 and add 'We believe that co-decision is unacceptable and undermines the role of national parliaments.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 67): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

An Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 91).

Paragraph 91 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'provided that the balance is shifted back to the national parliaments.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 68): Ayes 2, Noes 6 [names as for Div. 60].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 92).

Paragraph 92 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, after 'EP' to add 'in an attempt to reconnect MEPs to constituencies small enough to re-establish a representative relationship with communities and their electorates.' — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 69).


Ayes, 5Noes, 3
Mr Michael ConnartyMr William Cash
Mr Tony CunninghamMr Wayne David
Mr Jim DobbinMrs Angela Watkinson
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Another Amendment proposed, after the words last added, to add 'and that the party list system is abandoned in favour of "first past the post" and a constituency-based system in which the electors know for whom they are voting to represent them in a given area.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 70).


Ayes, 4Noes, 4
Mr William CashMr Michael Connarty
Mr Tony CunninghamMr Wayne David
Mr Bill TynanMr Jim Dobbin
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Angus Robertson


Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 93).

Paragraph 93 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 9, at the end to add 'We agree.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 71): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 94).

Paragraph 94 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end to add 'and democratic and that the EU should not engage in the sphere of European Government such as the CFSP, Economic and Monetary Union or Taxation.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 72): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 95).

Paragraph 95 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 14, at the end to insert 'Subsidiarity, as Alain Lamassoure has indicated does not work. It begs the question, which is essentially political, as to what could or should be done at what level and whether it would be effective and democratically accountable.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 73): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 96).

Paragraph 96 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after 'achieved' to insert 'or whether framework legislation would be democratically accountable.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 74): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 13, to leave out from 'touch' to the end of line 14 and add 'but above all only on the basis of co-operation, not co-ordination, leaving control with the Member States, the national parliaments to which they must remain democratically accountable and authorities within them.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 75): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 97).

Paragraph 97 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, after 'Treaties' to insert 'from time to time.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 76): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 98).

Paragraph 98 read and agreed to (now paragraph 99).

Paragraph 99 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out 'extensive' and insert 'the extensive and objectionable'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 77): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

An Amendment made.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end to add 'This is true.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 78): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 100).

Paragraph 100 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out 'and necessarily so.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 79): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 101).

Paragraph 101 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, after 'clearer' to insert 'and reduced'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 80): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 4, at the end to insert 'In particular it needs to be stated that there cannot be any such thing as shared sovereignty — the question who governs is the essential democratic issue and this cannot be left to European Government nor to the principle of "Ever Closer Union"'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 81): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out 'periodically, with the possibility both of adding new powers and of returning' and insert 'with the need to return'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 82): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 12, at the to insert ' — this is a matter of practical will for the United Kingdom.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 83): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 15, after 'Treaties' to insert 'but from their parliaments'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 84): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 16, after 'a' to insert 'substantive'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 85): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Amendment proposed, in line 17, at the end to insert 'particularly in the sphere of European Government, the existing recent ingredients of which must be reversed, such as the CFSP.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 86): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 20, at the end to add 'if based on the above.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 87): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 102).

Paragraphs 102 and 103 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 103 and 104).

Paragraph 104 read.   

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'It is significant that a former President of the European Court of Justice, Lord Mackenzie Stuart, described the concept of subsidiarity as "gobbledegook"!' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 88): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 105).

Paragraph 105 read.   

Amendment proposed, in line 32, at the end to add 'We agree with this assessment and the reasons behind it, namely that it enables Ministers and governments to avoid political responsibility — this is disreputable.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 89): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 106).

Paragraph 106 read and agreed to (now paragraph 107).

Paragraph 107 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out from 'Lamassoure.' to the end of line 5 and insert 'We do not agree with the principle of subsidiarity because it does not and cannot work. We are prepared however to ask the following questions:' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 90): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 11, at the end to add 'We do not believe that these questions, in practice, can be answered, in line with the assessment of Alain Lamassoure and Lord Mackenzie Stuart.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 91): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 108).

Paragraphs 108 to 110 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 109 to 111).

Paragraph 111 read, amended and agreed to (now paragraph 112).

Paragraph 112 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 14, at the end to add 'but we have no confidence that subsidiarity will work in principle or in practice and therefore it should be abandoned in favour of express and specific reductions in the allocation of powers under the Treaties.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 92): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 113).

Paragraphs 113 and 114 read.

Motion made, and Question put, that paragraphs 113 and 114 be left out. — (Mr William Cash.)

The Committee divided (Div. 93): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraphs agreed to (now paragraphs 114 and 115).

Paragraphs 115 and 116 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 116 and 117).

Paragraph 117 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out 'and the EP must not see itself as the exclusive' and insert 'but the EP must see itself as the secondary'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 94): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 7, at the end to insert:

'with the primary role accorded to the national parliaments, any one of which can exercise the veto where its vital national interests are involved as the United Kingdom White Paper clearly stated in 1970 — not only in its own interests but also to preserve the "very fabric of the Community". This is true because overriding national concerns and national vital interests is a source of discord and instability which will reap its own dividend. By failing to grapple with the fact that there cannot be two sovereign parliamentary systems representing the views of electorates (which compete with one another for ultimate control over the law making process), an inevitable vacuum of power emerges. This has led to alienation, a feeling of irrelevance for the voters, low turnouts in national and European elections and instability, which will get worse. When this reaches a critical mass, there will be implosion. When this happens the Rule of Law throughout Europe will be undermined. This will lead to extremism, as is already happening. As this accelerates, authoritarianism will increase as the State struggles to maintain control, with an inevitable backlash and civil disturbance. Suppressing the concerns of electorates of individual Member States is a source of disruption and instability and was indicated by the Dutch elections where a substantial proportion of the electorate indicated that they do not want the exclusive competence of the EU (which is currently a transitional matter) to prevail in respect of immigration.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 95): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 9, after 'parliaments' to insert 'and willing co-operation between the Member States'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 96): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 118).

Paragraphs 118 and 119 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 119 and 120).

Paragraph 120 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, after 'veto.' to insert 'This principle, as indicated above, was advocated by the UK White Paper in 1970.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 97): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 11, to leave out from 'them.' to the end of line 18 and add 'We adhere to this principle. We support proposals for national parliament vetoes, given that proper notice, in good time, of proposals are made available to a national parliament and that, essentially, they are made subject to free votes on a motion by significant numbers of members of that parliament, enforced by Standing Orders.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 98): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 121).

Paragraphs 121 to 124 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 122 to 125).

Paragraph 125 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out from 'IGC.' to the end of line 9. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 99): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 126).

Paragraph 126 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out 'representativeness' and insert 'representation and accountability'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 100): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out 'Busy'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 101): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out from 'did.' to the end of line 17 and add 'We conclude that a Second Chamber is impracticable.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 102): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 127).

Paragraph 127 read and agreed to (now paragraph 128).

Paragraph 128 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 13, at the end to add 'We reject the concept of "joint constituent powers" because there is no such thing as joint sovereignty — there can only be one sovereign power of government in the spheres of Government (e.g. CFSP) as compared for example to the spheres of trade and commerce as under the Single European Act.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 103): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 129).

Paragraph 129 read and agreed to (now paragraph 130).

Paragraph 130 read.

Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 1 to 6 and add 'We do not accept that the principle of subsidiarity can work in practice as Alain Lamassoure and Lord Mackenzie Stuart have indicated.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 104): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 131).

Paragraphs 131 to 134 read.

Motion made, and Question put, That paragraphs 131 to 134 be left out. — (Mr William Cash.)

The Committee divided (Div. 105): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraphs agreed to (now paragraphs 132 to 135).

Paragraph 135 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out 'matters of subsidiarity or should be a more general examination. For the latter' and insert 'a more general examination. For this'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 106): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 136).

Paragraphs 136 and 137 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 137 and 138).

Paragraph 138 read, amended and agreed to (now paragraph 139).

Paragraph 139 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 13, to leave out 'While we believe national parliamentarians alone should consider matters of subsidiarity,' and insert 'We believe that'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 107): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 20, after 'agenda' to insert 'provided that the EP was not granted co-decision in this sphere.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 108): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 140).

Paragraph 140 read and agreed to (now paragraph 141).

Paragraph 141 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out 'CFSP, Justice and Home Affairs (meeting some of the concerns expressed by Statewatch and Fair Trials Abroad)'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 109): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Amendment proposed, in line 9, to leave out 'such as the annual report on the CFSP'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 110): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 142).

Paragraph 142 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'but strictly on the basis that co-decision by the European Parliament did not prevail.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 111): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 143).

Paragraph 143 read and agreed to (now paragraph 144).

Paragraph 144 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 10, at the end to add 'The CFSP and ESDP are dangerously lacking in the area of accountability and there is insufficient scrutiny. Merely scrutinising CFSP and ESDP, however would achieve little unless there was also the capacity to veto.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 112): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 145).

Paragraph 145 read and agreed to (now paragraph 146).

Paragraph 146 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 7, after 'participation' to insert 'and we believe that the ESDP role under the Treaties needs radical review.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 113): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 147).

Paragraph 147 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 3, to leave out from 'generally' to 'support' in line 9 and insert 'We'.

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 114).


Ayes, 2Noes, 5
Mr Michael ConnartyMr William Cash
Mr Jim DobbinMr Wayne David
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan
Mrs Angela Watkinson


Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 148).

Paragraphs 148 to 150 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 149 to 151).

Paragraph 151 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, after 'documents.' to insert 'This is very disturbing.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 115): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 14, at the end to insert 'We would go further. Each Member State, including of course the UK, is affected by the decisions made by the other Member States and especially by the increasing use of QMV, co-decision by the EP and by the legislative role of the Commission. National parliamentary scrutiny is not an option — it is vital for democracy and accountability in the EU.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 116): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 152).

Paragraph 152 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out from 'operate' to 'However' in line 3 and insert '(although we have no confidence that it works). It would certainly be inappropriate for any EU institution to seek to tell national parliaments what to do.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 117): Ayes 2, Noes 7 [names as for Div. 3].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 153).

Paragraph 153 read and agreed to (now paragraph 154).

Paragraph 154 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out from 'to' to 'COSAC' in line 9 and insert 'insist that national parliaments should fully scrutinise government activity in the EU, as in Denmark and the UK, and reconnect citizens and EU decision-making. It would also be essential for the Convention to ask'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 118): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

An Amendment made.

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 155).

Paragraph 155 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 8, at the end to add 'The situation will be made worse if there are to be Regional Assemblies in the UK.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 119): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 156).

Paragraph 156 read and agreed to (now paragraph 157).

Paragraph 157 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, after 'Subsidiarity' to insert 'in theory'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 120): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 158).

Paragraphs 158 and 159 read and agreed to (now paragraphs 159 and 160).

Paragraph 160 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out 'are more controversial' and insert 'are a matter of ongoing debate'. — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 121).


Ayes, 7Noes, 2
Mr Roger CasaleMr William Cash
Mr Michael ConnartyMrs Angela Watkinson
Mr Tony Cunningham
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 161).

Paragraph 161 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 15, to leave out 'common sense'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 122): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 162).

A paragraph — (Mr Michael Connarty) — brought up and read.

Question put, That the paragraph be read a second time.

The Committee divided (Div. 123): Ayes 7, Noes 2 [names as for Div. 121].

Paragraph added (now paragraph 163).

Paragraph 162 read and agreed to (now paragraph 164).

Paragraph 163 read, as follows:

163. We would not support new rights which undermined the position of Member States by making sub-Member State authorities their competitors in the EU, or rights for authorities with legislative powers which disadvantaged those without. Also, we emphasise that the EU should not intervene in the internal organisation of Member States. Making any special status dependent on Member States designating the regions to benefit does not resolve the subsidiarity problem here, as it would still involve the EU offering special rights to particular regions and in practice putting pressure on Member States to allow them to take up such rights. Therefore we do not support the proposal for partner regions of the Union status. However, despite the silence of the Laeken Declaration on the subject, we do believe the Convention should discuss the involvement of sub-Member State authorities in the EU.

Amendment proposed, in line 2, to leave out 'or rights for authorities with legislative powers which disadvantage those without'. — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 124): Ayes 7, Noes 2 [names as for Div. 121].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out from the beginning to 'However' in line 9 and insert 'There are still unanswered questions about how the proposal for partner regions of the Union status might work in practice.' — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 125): Ayes 7, Noes 2 [names as for Div. 121].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 165).

Paragraph 164 read and agreed to (now paragraph 166).

Paragraph 165 read, as follows:

165. As for consultation, we note that the Government welcomes improved consultation between EU institutions and the devolved, regional and local authorities. We regard it as common sense for the Commission to consult authorities with legislative powers which will have to transpose and implement new EU legislation and to take particular notice of their views. However, we are less convinced that any such consultation or access to the Commission should be 'preferential'. It may be that the Commission's 'more systematic dialogue ... at an early stage' will be sufficient, or the 'framework to allow for earlier input' requested by the Deputy First Minister.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, to leave out 'However, we are less convinced that' and insert 'We believe that the Convention on the future of Europe should fully explore whether'. — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 126): Ayes 7, Noes 2 [names as for Div. 121].

Another Amendment made.

Another Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out from 'privileged.' to the end of line 8. — (Mr Michael Connarty.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 127): Ayes 7, Noes 2 [names as for Div. 121].

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to (now paragraph 167).

Paragraph 166 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, after 'unconstitutional' to insert 'which raises the democratic question as to why the voters in such countries are excluded from deciding their political and constitutional future, particularly where there is a party list system for elections.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 128): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 168).

Paragraph 167 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, after 'matters' to insert 'appears to'. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 129): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Another Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out 'In such a case there are only two possible responses:' and add 'However, what happens in one EU Member State affects all the others. There are certain consequences which flow from referendums — '. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 130): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Amendment proposed, to leave out lines 9 and 10. — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 131): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 169).

Paragraph 168 read.

Amendment proposed, in line 6, to leave out 'would certainly not be appropriate' and insert 'of those voting throughout the EU as a whole would certainly not be appropriate. Each Member State should be able to decide for itself as in the case of Ireland and Denmark (and the UK) but once that decision had been made that decision should not be reopened by another referendum. It is intolerable that the Danish no vote on the Maastricht Treaty was disgracefully reopened and after the no vote in Ireland on the Nice Treaty, Romano Prodi alleged that the decision was "undemocratic" although every elector had been sent a full and fair summary of the arguments.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 132): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Amendment proposed, in line 15, to leave out from ' idea' to the end of line 17 and add 'of a Europe wide referendum as undemocratic although we regard individual Member States referendums as democratic while they give the electors a last resort opportunity to decide their own political and constitutional future with full and fair information, such as a White Paper and with every elector or household sent a proper summary as to the matters involved.' — (Mr William Cash.)

Question put, That the Amendment be made.

The Committee divided (Div. 133): Ayes 2, Noes 8 [names as for Div. 1].

Paragraph agreed to (now paragraph 170).

Paragraphs 169 and 170 read.  

Motion made and Question put, That paragraphs 169 and 170 be left out. — (Mr William Cash.)

The Committee divided (Div. 134).


Ayes, 2 Noes, 7
Mr William CashMr Roger Casale
Mrs Angela WatkinsonMr Michael Connarty
Mr Wayne David
Mr Jim Dobbin
Mr Mark Hendrick
Mr Angus Robertson
Mr Bill Tynan


Paragraphs agreed to (now paragraph 171 and 172).

Paragraph 171 read and agreed to (now paragraph 173).

Annexes [Summary, Glossary, Summary in French, Summary in German] amended and agreed to.

An Annex [Strengthening the Role of National Parliaments in the European Union] — (Mr Roger Casale) — brought up and read, as follows:


309   Line numbers relate to the paragraphs as printed in the Report. Back


 
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