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Mr. Garnier: I shall not bother with the hon. Gentleman.

David Winnick: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman give way?

Mr. Garnier: No. Sit down.

The programme motion is unnecessary because, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) pointed out today and my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) said on Second Reading, a great deal of material in the Bill could be tackled later in a different measure.

The motion is unwise because the Bill that we are supposed to be debating in a spirit of co-operation and urgency is embroiled in a controversy of the Government's making about the rushed way in which a measure that is important for its legal as well as constitutional implications will be placed on the statute book. There is no reason for the Government's behaviour and I deeply regret their actions.

The motion is unbalanced because, as the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) said, the elected representatives of the public receive two days for debate in Committee and the House of Lords have six days to discuss the Bill. We had an interesting debate on Second Reading. It is regrettable that those who were unable to contribute to it will be confined to two days of consideration—today and next Monday. It is extraordinary that the Government believe that it is appropriate for the unelected House to spend more time than the House of Commons on the measure. That brings the legislation into disrepute.

We in this Parliament, whether Opposition or Government Members, seek to pass legislation that has public consent. Not everyone will agree with it or acknowledge the good sense behind the policy, but those who are the subject of the law know that it has been through a process that they understand and with which they agree. This important Bill is to be rammed through the House at short order. When brought into effect, I fear that it will not have the wholehearted consent of the public who send us here to discuss these matters.

In addition to the arguments made by my right hon. and hon. Friends, the hon. Member for North Cornwall and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), I have heard only one good thing today. My hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), the shadow Home Secretary, made the point that we shall at least express our distaste for the measure in a Division. That is all we can do, which is regrettable. I wish that I

21 Nov 2001 : Column 335

could argue further on the timetable motion and the substance of the Bill, but this Government do not want to listen. Frankly, I do not think they care.

4.26 pm

Mr. Tony McWalter (Hemel Hempstead): It is easy to lose sight of what these technical motions mean. On Monday, I sat on this Bench from 2.30 until the vote at 10 o'clock and each time I rose to catch the eye of the Chair I was unsuccessful. I remained in the House until business ended just after midnight. These motions deny a Member who is willing to take that much trouble to contribute the capacity to do so.

I accept that the electors of Hemel Hempstead may have been wrong to send me here in the first place, but the effect of a greatly restrictive timetable is to produce a situation in which those who want to contribute and make considerable efforts to do so are denied that contribution.

Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, East): Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. McWalter: I shall not take interventions, as I have about a minute left.

This Bench is a long way back from the Front Bench. Nevertheless, the concept behind the House is that Members who sit here as well as Members who sit there should be heard. The arrangements made for debate should give us the capacity to contribute, but I was not alone in being unable to take part. Many Members who contributed to the debate on this 114-page Bill were given only 10 minutes, so they had to focus and restrict their remarks considerably.

I strongly agree with the representations made by the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg). Restricting the timetable for a large Bill is different from restricting the timetable for a small, tight Bill. Had I been given a chance, I would have said that, among other things. Effectively, this is a very restrictive timetable motion—a gagging order on people who have been sent here to speak. That is an important element of the debate.

My next point relates to the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (David Winnick), who was not here at midnight on Monday. With almost no time left, one of my colleagues was finally called, and my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) made an important speech about whether our system has the capacity to confine people who constitute a threat to our country.

Mr. George Howarth: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you confirm that decisions as to who is called in a Second Reading debate are a matter not for the Government, but for the Chair?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is probably self-evident to the House.

Mr. McWalter: The order makes it impossible for whoever is in the Chair to accommodate all who want to express their views. It means that matters that the House should discuss, such as the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar, can be given only very restricted consideration. I hope that the Government will take

21 Nov 2001 : Column 336

seriously the impassioned pleas of Labour as well as Opposition Members, and give us a little more time to try and secure a Bill that is appropriate to the purpose and addresses the current legal deficiencies, while ensuring that those who want a say in its fashioning have an opportunity to speak.

4.30 pm

Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell): I support all that was said by the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. McWalter). I do so as one who broadly supports the Bill, voted for its Second Reading, and has only the same reservations as my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin)—reservations that he expressed very clearly on Second Reading.

This has been a quiet week in the House. The business has been relatively unimportant. There was no reason why yesterday's Second Reading of the National Health Service Reform and Health Care Professions Bill could not have been delayed for a week. Tomorrow we are to debate Second Reading of the British Overseas Territories Bill, hardly the most exciting legislation of the current Session. The idea that such matters should have priority over proper consideration of this Bill is outrageous. As for Friday's business, we could surely have passed a motion enabling private Members' Bills to be taken on another Friday. No harm would have been done if the business had been delayed by a week or two.

Beverley Hughes rose

Mr. MacKay: I should be very happy to hear from the Minister why that has not happened.

Beverley Hughes: When the Conservative Government presided over the passage of the Prevention of Terrorism (Additional Powers) Act 1996—I understand that the right hon. Gentleman was a Whip then, possibly deputy Chief Whip—did he object to the timetable governing those proceedings? I gather that it involved a statement on one day, all stages in the House of Commons on the following day, and all stages in the House of Lords, along with Royal Assent, on the day after that.

Mr. MacKay: If the Minister had been in the House at that time she would know that the Bill was very short and very precise, and that both sides of the House agreed that it could proceed through its stages quickly. This is a long and very complex Bill.

I would be quite happy for the Bill to go through in a week; I disagree with one or two other critics on that. I am saying that we should have had more time in which to debate it, because everyone would then have had the chance to express a view. This week's other business, which is at worst trivial and at best not very important, could have been delayed for a week. I hoped that the Minister would explain why the British Overseas Territories Bill is so important that its Second Reading must be debated tomorrow, rather than our having at least one extra day to debate this Bill in Committee. I now invite her to explain just why it is so important—but she shakes her head. [Interruption.] Let the Minister tell us just why the British Overseas Territories Bill is so important.

Mr. Hogg: Come on!

21 Nov 2001 : Column 337

Mr. MacKay: If we had had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday on which to debate this Bill in Committee and on Report, most of us who are critical of the timetable motion—the hon. Member for Stoke- on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) nods—would have withdrawn our criticism. Nothing would have been lost, and the Minister and the Home Secretary would have gained a little credit.

It being forty-five minutes after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Order [28 June], put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

The House divided: Ayes 334, Noes 213.

Division No. 71
[4.34 pm


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, Hilary
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blair, Rt Hon Tony
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Bradley, Rt Hon Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Rt Hon Nicholas
(Newcastle E & Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr Lynda
(Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Rt Hon Charles
(Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Rt Hon Robin (Livingston)
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs Ann (Keighley)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis–Thomas, Mrs Claire
Daisley, Paul
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, Rt Hon John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, Rt Hon Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foulkes, George
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Rt Hon Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, Rt Hon Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, Rt Hon Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith
Hodge, Margaret
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Rt Hon Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, Rt Hon John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Rt Hon Adam
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Joyce, Eric
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luke, Iain
Lyons, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, Rt Hon John
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, Rt Hon Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Raynsford, Rt Hon Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Robertson, John
(Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simon, Siôn
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Rt Hon Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Rt Hon Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, Rt Hon John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr Howard
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Rt Hon Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Watson, Tom
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Wills, Michael
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Ian Pearson and
Mr. John Heppell.


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John
Beggs, Roy
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bellingham, Henry
Bennett, Andrew
Bercow, John
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Annette
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Malcolm
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Butterfill, John
Cable, Dr Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
Clifton–Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James
Curry, Rt Hon David
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dodds, Nigel
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan, Alan (Rutland & Melton)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, Rt Hon Iain
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Annabelle
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London)
Fisher, Mark
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibb, Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John
Heath, David
Heathcoat–Amory, Rt Hon David
Hermon, Lady
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles
(Ross Skye & Inverness W)
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Laws, David
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell–Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
McIntosh, Miss Anne
MacKay, Rt Hon Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNamara, Kevin
McWalter, Tony
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall–Andrews, Robert
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr Andrew
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, Rev Ian
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mark
Pugh, Dr John
Randall, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Sedgemore, Brian
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (Mid–Norfolk)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Trend, Michael
Trimble, Rt Hon David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul
Tyrie, Andrew
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Wishart, Pete
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Younger–Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Wilshire and
Mr. Charles Hendry.

Question accordingly agreed to.

21 Nov 2001 : Column 341


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