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Mr. Hughes: We do not disagree about that. I have never argued that the fourth proposal, on summary detention, was foreseeable. However, it was foreseeable that we would have a football-related Bill, so the Government cannot refute the argument for introducing it earlier in the year, when it might have been amended or expanded. When three of the four measures were always predictable, it is not defensible for them to bring the Bill to the House two and a half weeks before the recess.

Mr. Straw: I have already made it clear to the House about 15 times that I would have preferred the powers relating to the banning order to be included in the legislation introduced by the hon. Member for West Chelmsford. We have been over the history of that, and there is no argument about that. It must be said, however, that the advice that we received, which I transmitted to the House, was that there was a general belief that the existing powers were likely to prove satisfactory to deal with known hooligans, and indeed they did. They did not prove satisfactory to deal with an emerging and substantial problem.

The right hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Mr. Maclennan) said that he thought that there might be a loophole in the Bill because it did not cover Scotland and Northern Ireland. Whether we take the Bill through the House slowly or quickly there will be what he describes as a loophole because Parliament, with his full approval, has legislated to transfer responsibility for the criminal law in Scotland to a Scottish Parliament. It does not matter how much time we take because any criminal law legislation that we pass will be confined to England and Wales and, in certain circumstances, to Northern Ireland.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what is the view of the Scottish Parliament, and I can tell him the Scottish Executive's view. They do not at present see any need

17 Jul 2000 : Column 69

to bring in legislation parallel to the measures that I am proposing for England and Wales, but they have undertaken to keep the matter under review.

In the meantime, arrangements will be made for the closest possible liaison between police officers north and south of the border to establish whether there is any evidence of people seeking to evade the new controls in the way suggested. We shall also be looking to set up similar contacts with the police force in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland.

The right hon. Gentleman's point about the Bill not applying to Scotland extends to the Republic of Ireland, where we have had no legislative authority since 1921--and quite right too. However, as it is part of the common travel area, it is possible for someone to seek to evade the controls by travelling to Dublin without a passport, because none is needed, and then travelling elsewhere.

The point is that there is no legislation anywhere in the world that can eliminate all criminal behaviour. The question is whether legislation will better control that criminal behaviour. The judgment that the Bill will do so carries the approbation of the House. Just because one cannot do everything--in this case ensure that the legislation extends to Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland--should not mean that one should not do anything. In other words, we should legislate for the serious site of the problem: England and Wales.

I believe that there is adequate time for debating the details of the Bill in this House and the other place. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald squeaks at that proposition and seeks to raise objections to it, but I remind her of the extraordinary position into which the Conservative Opposition have got themselves. Before the end of the tournament in Netherlands and Belgium, her right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was calling for legislation to be brought forward and dealt with immediately.

Miss Widdecombe: Yes.

Mr. Straw: The right hon. Lady says yes. Had such legislation been brought forward straight away, aside from the fact that it is extraordinarily difficult to envisage how it could have operated effectively in a matter of days, one thing is absolutely certain: it could not conceivably have received the care and attention that has been devoted to this Bill on this occasion--[Interruption.] It is no good other Opposition Members squawking at this stage. That was the Leader of the Opposition's proposition.

Miss Widdecombe: Will the Home Secretary give way?

Mr. Straw: No, I am about to finish.

Before the right hon. Lady starts to quibble about the time that has been allocated under the guillotine motion, she needs to remind herself of the remarks made by the Leader of the Opposition in Bradford on 22 June. He said:

He did not use the word "guarantee", but he might have done--

17 Jul 2000 : Column 70

That is what he said, that is what we are delivering and that is what we expect the Conservative Opposition to deliver with us--for that is the guarantee that the Leader of the Opposition gave on this legislation.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: in paragraph 1(4), leave out from "Consideration" to end of paragraph 1(5) and insert--

Main Question, as amended, put:--

The House divided: Ayes 281, Noes 56.

Division No. 269
[6.35 pm


Ainger, Nick
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ms Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Atkins, Charlotte
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, Rt Hon Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Cann, Jamie
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Corbett, Robin
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr Jack
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Dalyell, Tam
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, Rt Hon Terry
(B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, John
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, David
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Foster, Michael J (Worcester)
Galloway, George
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Gunnell, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Hutton, John
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham & Heston)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, Rt Hon Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Milburn, Rt Hon Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morris, Rt Hon Sir John (Aberavon)
Mountford, Kali
Mowlam, Rt Hon Marjorie
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, Rt Hon Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr Doug
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Mrs Diana
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Rt Hon Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Ms Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Short, Rt Hon Clare
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms Rachel
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Ms Claire
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Williams, Mrs Betty (Conwy)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Kevin Hughes and
Mr. Robert Ainsworth.


Allan, Richard
Baker, Norman
Ballard, Jackie
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Brand, Dr Peter
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr Vincent
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cunningham, Ms Roseanna
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Fearn, Ronnie
Flynn, Paul
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gale, Roger
Gummer, Rt Hon John
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, Rt Hon Charles
(Ross Skye & Inverness W)
Kirkwood, Archy
Leigh, Edward
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Livsey, Richard
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
Maclennan, Rt Hon Robert
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway)
Oaten, Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Rendel, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Sanders, Adrian
Shepherd, Richard
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Townend, John
Tyler, Paul
Webb, Steve
Wigley, Rt Hon Dafydd
Wilkinson, John
Willis, Phil

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Donald Gorrie and
Mr. Tom Brake.

Question accordingly agreed to.

17 Jul 2000 : Column 72

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