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Dr. Brand: Is not the purpose of the Food Standards Agency to establish whether there is a link between animal welfare, the methods of rearing animals and producing food and food safety? We can all make assumptions from different perspectives in the animal welfare sector, but we need scientific evidence, such as that quoted by the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), to ensure that we are protecting the public.
Mr. Paice: I am putting forward reasons why the Government would be ill advised to accept the amendment. We do not support it, although it is not out of lack of sympathy. If he looks at the Bill in its entirety, the hon. Gentleman will find that there is plenty of scope for the agency to examine the issues to which he refers. My point is that implicit in the amendment is the suggestion that different animal welfare systems automatically carry with them different food safety implications. I reject that contention.
Mr. Maclean: The hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) said that changes in agricultural practices since the war are responsible for increased food poisoning, but the greatest changes have taken place in methods of food storage and preparation, in the types of food available and in cooking methods--microwaves and all the other food technology--plus a changing population eating on the hoof and not cooking food in the old-fashioned way, when everything was roasted or boiled to extinction.
Mr. Paice: My right hon. Friend makes the point that I was going to make in my next sentence. In the past two or three decades, we have moved from the situation where the housewife--usually the person in the house, although I shall try to avoid sexism--purchases the raw materials and prepares a cooked meal. Nowadays, that is much less often the case. Therefore, a raft of changes could have brought about hygiene problems.
Mr. Mullin: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will remember that I acknowledged that point, and said that
animal welfare systems were just one of the factors. I did not claim even that they were the greatest factor. I accept his argument.
The positive side of the amendment, which does not outweigh the negative side--which is why we cannot support it--is that it would allow the Food Standards Agency to emphasise what the Opposition contend are already high welfare standards in this country. There will always be room for improvement. The hon. Member for Sunderland, South would probably disagree about aspects of that improvement, and no one would pretend that there is not always room for some change. However, the Minister of State rightly praised our standards of welfare. This country has already taken steps to outlaw veal crates, sow stalls and tethers.
We have higher welfare standards than many of the countries from which we import food. Ministers have rightly spoken about the welfare premium. However, that is made at the retail end; it is important that it is reflected in the extra costs incurred by producers. For example, our pig producers, who produce pigs without using stalls or tethers because those are illegal here, must compete with producers of pigmeat produced in countries that use those systems.
In the previous debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) referred to the importance of ensuring that labelling included the system of production and the country of origin, so that consumers could bear those in mind in making a choice. If a housewife wants to buy foreign pigmeat, she should be able to do so in the full knowledge that it might not have been reared to the standards which we expect to be used in this country.
Mr. Gill:
I happen to know that, yesterday, my hon. Friend met the chairman of Assured British Meats. Does he agree that many of the points that the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) made are covered by the scheme of policing, controlling and monitoring all the processes in the production of British meat, which is partly funded from public money? Does not that answer many of the criticisms that the hon. Gentleman made?
Mr. Paice:
My hon. Friend, with his immense knowledge of the meat industry, is entirely right. Assured British Meat, set up and partly funded from public money, is doing a fantastic job in ensuring that our meat is produced to the highest standards, and that that is used as a marketing tool so that the public are aware of it.
We sympathise with the objective of ensuring that those matters are taken into account--I have not mentioned slaughterhouses as I am sure that the Minister will pick that point up--but we have serious doubts about the phrasing of the amendment. We shall therefore not support it, should it be pushed to a vote.
Mr. Luff:
I share many of the doubts and reservations expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) about the amendment. The hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) and I had an opportunity to discuss these issues, and I understand and respect his concerns. He may be partly
The amendment would not extend the Bill, as he suggested in his opening remarks, but would lead to overdue specification of one aspect of the concerns and issues that the agency will address. Clauses 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 deal with the agency's functions. They deal with developing policies for food safety or other consumer interests in relation to food. Clause 7 provides advice and information to the general public. Under clause 8, the agency has the function of obtaining information on those issues. Clause 9 deals with animal feeding stuffs--which, at least in part, deals with the hon. Gentleman's concern about antibiotics. Crucially, clause 10, on the powers of the agency, says:
I repeat the concern expressed by the Minister about new clause 1. He said that to accept new clause 1 would be to distort the purpose of the agency. Accepting amendment No. 11 would have the same effect: it would distort the purpose of the agency by putting undue focus on specific activities, concerns and issues in the food chain, when there are so many others that should worry us.
If I were asked which of all the concerns about food safety was the most important, I would say it was hygiene. To make the issues raised today by the hon. Member for Sunderland, South a priority would be to detract from what I consider to be the priority. It is clear that most instances of food poisoning occur after the food has left the farm, and after it has left the factory, and that it tends to occur in catering establishments more often than in the home. In saying that, I do not intend to excuse poor standards earlier in the food chain. It is crucial for our farmers to produce food to the highest possible standards, and there is no excuse for sloppy practices.
Dr. Gibson:
One of the problems in kitchens now is that some utensils are coated with antibiotics. That is relevant to some of the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin). Antibiotic resistance is being passed on to the human population. You win some, you lose some.
Mr. Luff:
I do not think that we need to debate the merits of the issue. I have a good deal of sympathy with
I share the doubts expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire about the definition of "inadequate". The definition itself is inadequate. Two sub-paragraphs in amendment No. 11 use that word, referring to
I am also worried about the highlighting of "slaughterhouse systems and practices". I respect the concerns that were in the mind of the hon. Member for Sunderland, South when he tabled the amendment, and I do not know the views of other Conservative Members, but I believe that, if anything, slaughterhouses are already over-regulated. Some of the most animal welfare friendly slaughterhouses in Worcestershire have been forced to close as a result of over-regulation, and I think that the Government are doing a tremendous job in monitoring the standards of the abattoirs that remain. The hygiene assessment score system is working extremely well, and I think that it deserves our support.
The requirement that the amendment imposes on slaughterhouse systems suggests the existence of a worry that the House ought not to have. The Minister of State should be congratulated on what he is doing to drive up standards, but that has already been at some cost. Some of the best slaughterhouses have already gone, and those that remain are paying a heavy price for the privilege of this system of regulation.
The amendment might have a particularly heavy impact on domestic production, and no corresponding impact on imported products. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cambridgeshire made that point. Many of our greatest concerns are not about British systems, which are generally the best in the world, but about foreign systems, which clearly are not. My hon. Friend rightly spoke at length about pigs. That is a classic example of our standards being the highest in the world, but I fear that the amendment could send a signal to the contrary.
I am also worried about the fact that the amendment deals only with livestock. Many food poisoning issues have nothing whatever to do with livestock; they relate to a range of other foodstuffs. I do not think that it is helpful to highlight livestock as being a particular problem.
"The Agency may, for the purpose of carrying out its function under section 8 or . . . 9, . . . with a view to obtaining information about . . . any aspect of the production or supply of food or food sources",
seek information, including observations about
"agricultural premises, agricultural businesses or agricultural activities".
The Bill therefore contains a comprehensive range of provisions, which fully deal with the hon. Gentleman's concerns. Whether his concerns are legitimate or not is irrelevant. The agency has those powers.
"inadequate standards of animal health and welfare"
and
"inadequate standards of hygiene and animal welfare".
I agree with my hon. Friend that "inadequate" is a very subjective term, and I think that that in itself is a good reason for us to doubt the merits of the amendment.
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