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CONTINGENCIES FUND 1997-98
Resolved,
That there be laid before the House the accounts of the Contingencies Fund, 1997-98, showing:
(1) The Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March 1998.
(2) The Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.--[Mr. Dowd.]
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
The Secretary of State was asked--
Good Friday Agreement
1. Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East): What progress is being made on issues of equality and human rights under the Good Friday agreement. [84436]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Paul Murphy): The Human Rights Commission was established on 1 March this year. Interviews have also taken place for appointments to the Equality Commission. Since the Belfast agreement, legislation outlawing discrimination has been strengthened and extended to cover the provision of goods, facilities and services.
Mr. Crausby: Does my right hon. Friend agree that human rights and equality issues are a vital part of the Good Friday agreement, and that the provisions for human rights in Northern Ireland are contained in one of the most advanced regimes in the whole of the western world?
Mr. Murphy: Of course I agree with my hon. Friend. The commission will play a key role in ensuring that the development and protection of human rights remain at the heart of the new system of government in Northern Ireland. It represents a major change in the pattern of human rights protection in the United Kingdom. Professor Brice Dickson, the chair of the commission, heads a highly capable and experienced team, which will work closely with the Assembly and the Government to protect the rights of people from all traditions in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham): When the Minister talks about human rights, will he please keep in mind the human rights of the paratroopers whose conduct on Bloody Sunday is the subject of inquiry? Does he agree that, if they are to be required to give evidence, it would be right--
Madam Speaker: Order. Judicial proceedings are taking place on that issue. The right hon. and learned Gentleman is a lawyer, and knowing the House as well as he does he should be extremely careful in the questions that he puts to the Minister on these matters.
Mr. Hogg: I was being extremely careful.
Mr. Hogg: If the paratroopers are required to give evidence, is it not right, as a matter of Government policy, that they should be granted immunity from prosecution?
Mr. Murphy: I shall be equally careful, Madam Speaker and, as this is a matter for the courts, I shall not answer that question.
Madam Speaker: I entirely agree with the Minister, and I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentleman put that question.
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Hull, North): My right hon. Friend will probably recall the statement that the
right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) made about solicitors in Northern Ireland shortly before the death of Mr. Patrick Finucane.
To come back to the point, will the Minister tell us when he hopes the Equality Commission will come into operation?
Mr. Murphy:
I hope that it will come into operation as soon as possible. My hon. Friend knows that the chief commissioner and the other members of the commission are in the process of being appointed. It has been a long and sometimes difficult exercise because, as my hon. Friend knows, the new commission will take over the duties of four other commissions. We now have agreement on the nature and functions of the new commissioners, but it will be some weeks yet before my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is able to announce their names.
Mr. Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley):
If the new Human Rights Commission in Northern Ireland is to be successful, it must enjoy the widespread support and confidence of the whole community. Is it not a reality that the Unionist community perceives a gross imbalance in the composition of the commission, in that there is no substantial or significant Unionist representation on it? What steps will the Secretary of State take to fulfil her statutory obligation to ensure that the composition of the Human Rights Commission reflects the balance of the community, because it does not do so at present?
Mr. Murphy:
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is considering a number of options. It is her duty, as far as is practicable, to ensure that the commission reflects the community in Northern Ireland. It is not merely a question of Unionist or nationalist, Protestant or Catholic, but involves gender, age and professional background. It is important to note that, of the 150 applicants for these jobs, only a tiny handful said that they had Unionist sympathies.
Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire):
The establishment of the commission is welcome, but the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Donaldson) is right about the need for the Unionist community to be represented. Could there not also be a representative of bodies that bravely face violence and intimidation? Those bodies do not seem to be represented either.
Would not human rights in Northern Ireland be greatly benefited by an end to the breaking of limbs, and by the decommissioning of arms?
Mr. Murphy:
No one would disagree with my hon. Friend's last two points. As for the commission, it is important to understand that its establishment results from the Good Friday agreement, and is reflected in statute. However, after devolution, provisions will enable other institutions in Northern Ireland to take into account reviews of people such as those referred to by my hon. Friend.
Mr. Malcolm Moss (North-East Cambridgeshire):
May I raise the issue of the human rights of the families of the disappeared? Does the Minister agree that, now that the Northern Ireland (Location of Victims' Remains) Bill has
Mr. Murphy:
Yes. We expect progress within a very short time, possibly within days. We are talking to the Irish Government about this important matter.
2. Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes):
What consultation she is having in Northern Ireland on the future of EU structural funding. [84438]
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Paul Murphy):
Consultation with social partners and local interests began last August, when we wrote to about 250 local interests to seek their views on the post-1999 structural funds. That was followed by a conference last week. Further consultation will take place over the coming months.
Shona McIsaac:
I hope that my right hon. Friend will agree that that demonstrates the support in the European Community for peace in Northern Ireland. Does he also agree that if we were ever to adopt any of the narrow-minded, inward-looking, navel-gazing, anti- European policies of the Conservative party, we would seriously jeopardise the peace process?
Mr. Murphy:
I agree that our membership of the European Union has been a major factor in helping to bring about peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. May I also say something about the Berlin settlement? It is unique: it has no equivalent elsewhere in the European Union. The special peace programme amounts to about £260 million, and I believe that it gives us an opportunity to bring about a peaceful, positive and stable society in Northern Ireland.
3. Mr. Don Touhig (Islwyn):
What progress is being made towards devolution in Northern Ireland. [84439]
4. Mr. Bill Michie (Sheffield, Heeley):
What progress has been made in implementing the Good Friday agreement. [84440]
5. Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip-Northwood):
When she expects the Executive for Northern Ireland to assume its governmental responsibilities. [84441]
6. Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South):
What progress is being made towards devolution in Northern Ireland. [84442]
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Marjorie Mowlam):
A great deal of progress has been made in implementing the Good Friday agreement. Practical preparations for devolution are complete, and a deadline of 30 June has been set. The Government and the parties are continuing to talk to resolve the outstanding issues.
Mr. Touhig:
The Government have delivered on their pledges for devolution in Wales, Scotland and Northern
Marjorie Mowlam:
Yes, that would be a great disappointment--not just for the Northern Ireland parties represented here, but, above all, for the people of Northern Ireland. A year ago, in the only poll that counts--a referendum--they demonstrated that they, too, wanted progress. Now they are scared: they are frightened that progress will not be made. I agree wholeheartedly that it would be an appalling tragedy if we failed to make that progress.
Mr. Michie:
Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that the implementation of the Good Friday agreement and the recommendations on policing in Northern Ireland will not suggest that there is an equivalence between the law-abiding citizens who have been fighting for law and order and democracy in Northern Ireland, and those who have deliberately sought to destroy those things?
Marjorie Mowlam:
I assure my hon. Friend that there is no equivalence between the two groups as he has outlined them; I can give him that assurance categorically. May I at the same time say to the police and to the other emergency services that they have worked so hard over the years to hold the fabric of Northern Ireland together that I should like--in terms of this question--to put that on record. It is important to do that now when we are working up to the parades, as we have on previous years. The police will be caught in the middle between both communities and will be there trying to hold the fabric of that society together and to uphold the rule of law. It is important that, with the Patten commission inquiry pending, that recognition is clearly given.
Mr. Wilkinson:
May I remind the Secretary of State that paragraph 23 of the Belfast agreement is clear:
Marjorie Mowlam:
I assure the hon. Gentleman that it is not a policy of appeasement. That pledge of office and the commitment to non-violence and a democratic way forward was made by the parties in the talks. We are slowly moving that process forward. Yes, there is violence on the fringes still. Since the beginning of May, the figures are something like 20 paramilitary beatings and 15 assaults. Some of those are by groups that want to destroy the process; others are by individuals. I study the information carefully--I can assure him of that--as I did with the security advisers whom I met at the beginning of the week.
I have hearsay. I have discussion with journalists, but I do not have evidence. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, if I had evidence, in terms of the judgment that I review constantly in the round as to whether people should still be in the talks, I would act. At the moment, I do not have that information. I make it clear to him that, if I did, I would act accordingly.
Miss Begg:
Having seen the pictures of the new Scottish Parliament sitting in Edinburgh and today's official opening of the Welsh Assembly, does my right hon. Friend share the frustrations of the House of Commons that there has been so little progress in setting up the Executive in Northern Ireland? Will she join me in encouraging the politicians there just to get on with it?
Marjorie Mowlam:
I thank my hon. Friend for those comments. We all share that frustration. It would be inhuman not to, but we have to understand, and it is difficult some days, that people are trying to change and change is not easy to cope with. I think that everyone wants progress to be made, none more so than the people of Northern Ireland. I do believe that, however slow it is, there is a commitment by the parties to try to make progress and that is what we are seeing at the moment. I am sure that the parties involved in the talks will hear the feelings of the whole House that we want progress to be made because, in the end, that is what the people of Northern Ireland want. I hope that, very soon, with the deadline of 30 June, that frustration declines considerably.
Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry):
Given that it appears that, if devolution takes place, Mr. Martin McGuinness will be the Secretary of State for Education, or in charge of education, in Northern Ireland, how will any teacher in any school in Northern Ireland convince the pupils under their care that past involvement in violence, thuggery, beating, mutilations, intimidation, arson, bombings and murder will be a bar to future preferment and advancement?
Marjorie Mowlam:
What we are doing is implementing the Good Friday agreement, which was supported by the parties in the talks. Some parties that are not represented here today voted against it. They will be represented in the devolved Parliament, too, if they so choose, but what we are doing is implementing the Good Friday agreement.
As I have said so often in the House, we can live in the past, we definitely have to understand the history, but we should not live in the past. If we do, the violence will continue. With the Good Friday agreement, we have the best chance for many years to make progress. Yes, it is difficult. I do not enjoy talking to people with the kind of background that some of them have, but I prefer to talk than have people killed. That is what the Good Friday agreement, at base, is about.
Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough):
Liberal Democrat Members appreciate the difficulties facing the Secretary of State in trying to reach a compromise by 30 June. If that compromise is not achieved, and there is not a solution by that date, will she trigger d'Hondt?
Marjorie Mowlam:
I should turn that around by saying that, at some point--for devolution to occur--
Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill):
As we work our way towards reaching agreement, on 30 June, does my right hon. Friend share my frustration at constantly hearing in the House remarks seeming to imply that all the violence is coming from one side? Will she join me in condemning current sectarian attacks against Catholics? What assessment has she made of those who are responsible for that particular violence?
Marjorie Mowlam:
I support my hon. Friend's comment that violence--currently, more loyalist than Catholic--is being perpetrated by both extremes. However, that violence should be roundly condemned by all sides. As I said in reply to the question by the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson), I constantly keep the situation under review and make assessments. My current assessment is that there is not sufficient evidence to make a judgment in the round that action should be taken. However, I should leave the House in no doubt that, if that evidence comes forward, we shall act accordingly.
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby):
The Secretary of State said that she wants to live not in the past, but in the present and the future. Will she therefore hail as a success implementation of the Good Friday agreement if terrorists and representatives of terrorist organisations are sitting in the Government of Northern Ireland while those same terrorist organisations--be it the IRA or others--hold on to their weapons?
Marjorie Mowlam:
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that, as Ministers have said many times from the Dispatch Box, there will have to be both decommissioning and formation of the Executive. Both will have to happen: the Good Friday agreement will have to be implemented. Neither is a precondition, but both are obligations. We are currently working on a way in which to ensure that both happen.
Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell):
Does the Secretary of State recall that the Prime Minister described the recent Hillsborough declaration as a "huge and significant milestone"? If that is so, why has the declaration's central plank--on IRA decommissioning of illegally held weapons--been jettisoned, and why are we now being told that Sinn Fein members should, before decommissioning, take their places in the Executive?
Marjorie Mowlam:
That is a complete misrepresentation of current discussions. The Hillsborough declaration was the best that the two Governments could do to find a way forward in addressing the issues that I outlined in my previous reply. We are trying to address those issues now, as we have been for the past four weeks. The options currently being considered by the parties do not address the big issues of decommissioning and formation of the Executive, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, but are a step towards addressing them, in the hope of making some progress in moving the process forward. Progress will not be made in a flash of immediacy, but will be made step
Mr. MacKay:
The questions that I have asked are essential and fundamental. There is no question that, in a democracy, such as ours, people should hold Executive office but not decommission their illegally held arms and explosives. It would hugely help the talks and the process if the Secretary of State would now promise the House that there are no circumstances in which Sinn Fein members would become Ministers in the Executive without having properly started to decommission their illegally held weapons.
Marjorie Mowlam:
Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, the two issues are crucial--central--to the Good Friday agreement. No one is avoiding them. All one is trying to do--it is the nature of negotiations--is to try, slowly, to build the trust and confidence to move the process forward. The issues will be got to--they cannot be avoided; they are part of the agreement. The process that we are trying to achieve is one in which the parties reach a point at which they are able directly to address those issues. If we bang them on the table on day one, we are not likely to make progress. We are still at day one in trying to deal with the issue. That is the nature of the negotiations. We are trying to move issues forward step by step. It is for the parties, with our help and support, to do what they can to reach an accommodation on the issues.
"As a condition of appointment, Ministers . . . will affirm the terms of a Pledge of Office".
Paragraph (b) of the pledge is a
"commitment to non-violence and exclusively peaceful and democratic means".
No amount of vacuous sophistry or appeasement can in any sense permit political parties that are apologists for those who illegally hold weapons to participate in an elected Executive for the Province.
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