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Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed): Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the amendment could have been detached from the fate of the Bill if the Lords had been prepared to accept an amendment in lieu, which introduced an order power whereby the provision would not come into force except under an affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament? If the Lords had allowed the Bill to proceed on that basis, it would have remained open to them to make their decision later. Certainly a number of hon. Members, including me, who voted for the amendment would have felt happy that the provision was at least on the statute book, even though the Lords would still have had the power to determine whether the provision was implemented.
Mr. Straw: I accept that. Indeed, if the right hon. Gentleman does not mind me saying so, that useful suggestion came from me--it was one of the proposals that we considered in some detail. However, it became clear that it would not be acceptable to the supporters of the majority position in the other place, so, in the circumstances that we faced, it was not, frankly, a runner.
As I have explained, the provisions of the Parliament Acts cannot be invoked, as the Crime and Disorder Bill began in another place. In any event, we could not countenance a year's delay in gaining Royal Assent for the Bill as a whole even if those provisions could be invoked.
Mr. Benn:
I have listened carefully to my right hon. Friend's arguments; the House may decide to accept his advice. Meanwhile, young people between 16 and 18 may be prosecuted by the police in circumstances totally different from any that have hitherto obtained--the elected House of Commons will have voted for the amendment and the Government will have given a solemn commitment to the European Court that they intend to legislate within a year to change the law. Can my right hon. Friend say whether he intends to indicate to the police that prosecutions in this category ought not to be proceeded with, given the two considerations of a treaty obligation and a free vote of the House of Commons? If that is not so, we shall get into a difficult and dangerous situation.
Mr. Straw:
I regret to say that I cannot give such an undertaking. Bills are Bills, and they are mere proposals for law until they become Acts of Parliament. I see no
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde):
The kind of prosecutions mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) rarely, if ever, take place in Scotland. The Home Secretary talked about his reluctance to accept the decision taken by the other place. He should also be talking about the profound regret and anger in this place, where more than half of hon. Members voted for a measure that unelected people have rejected.
4.15 pm
Mr. Straw: Speaking personally, I share the anger and regret of my hon. Friend and of many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House. My position in favour of an equal age of consent at 16 is long standing and well known. I can provide some reassurance for my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield by saying that recent parliamentary answers from the Minister of State, Home Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), said, to my recollection, that the number of prosecutions is about three a year.
Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon): I hope to catch your eye later, Madam Speaker, but I did not want to lose the point made by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn). I raised the same matter in an early-day motion this morning, and I have tabled questions on whether the Government, through the Lord Chancellor or the Attorney-General, have any discretion over decisions to prosecute. Such decisions are taken by the Crown Prosecution Service, but the level at which decisions are taken could be subject to direction. Does the Lord Chancellor have any remit to give sentencing guidance in the interim period while a unique position exists? According to answers that I have had from Ministers, there were 14 prosecutions for people involved with people under 16, although the data are not clear on whether that relates only to the relevant sections of the Sexual Offences Acts, or to other sections.
Mr. Straw: I have no discretion over prosecutions, and it would be entirely inappropriate if I did. Prosecutions are in the hands of the independent Crown Prosecution Service. It is accountable to the Attorney-General, but he must exercise his judgment entirely independently, and that is exactly as it should be. It is constitutionally important that, as long as the law is the law, it stands to be enforced, and enforcement is a matter for the prosecuting authorities. There can be no dubiety about that.
Mr. Joe Ashton (Bassetlaw): I do not want the Attorney-General to receive the wrong message from the House. I accept that there should be no prosecution of boys aged between 16 and 18, but I hope that we do not bring about an amnesty for older men and child abusers who take advantage and think that they will get away with it.
Mr. Straw: I have made it absolutely clear to my hon. Friend and to the House that there is no question of the law, or prosecuting policy, being changed in advance of
any change in legislation. There can be no dubiety about that. To do so would be to render risible our procedures for bringing draft laws to be considered at length by the House before they are passed into law. The debate should not drift down what will be an inevitable cul-de-sac.
I have already explained why we cannot risk the Bill in ping pong before the end of the Session and why the Parliament Act does not apply. Even if it did, we could not risk making use of it as it would delay Royal Assent for a further year.
I propose instead--in return for the House accepting the Government's proposition that we reluctantly accept the decision of the other place--that we should detach the issue from the Bill and deal with it in separate legislation in the next Session. Therefore, the Government will honour the second of the formal undertakings given in the Sutherland and Morris case, by producing legislation on the matter in 1998-99. In doing so, there will be, as before, a free vote on the age of consent so far as the Government are concerned.
The Government are neutral on the matter. That arrangement follows a number of precedents, for example that of the Shops Act 1996, when the Government produced the legislation, provided a menu of alternatives and allowed free votes. The new legislation will be introduced first into this House, to ensure that it has the benefit of the Parliament Act should that prove necessary.
Finally, Madam Speaker--this is my last point in case you want to get back on the edge of your Chair--in the debate in the House on 22 June, my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw moved amendments relating to breach of trust and the protection of vulnerable 16 and 17-year-olds. Although his amendment was defeated by 40 votes, we have never discounted the strength of the argument that he deployed in this House or that deployed in the other place.
The equalisation of the age of consent is a simple issue of removing a basic inequality in our law. It is an issue on which there are strong feelings and diverging views, but it is not technical or complex in itself. That was why we were content for it to be inserted at a relatively late stage in the passage of the Bill. I think that it is generally accepted that abuse of trust is not a simple issue in the same way; we discussed that at some length on 22 June. There are complexities in the definition of abuse of trust, in the behaviour, which is dealt with, in the interlocking with non-statutory safeguards that are already in place, such as professional codes, and in the relationship with current criminal law, under which any coercive sexual activity is already against the law and carries criminal sanctions.
As a consequence of those complexities, but also in recognition of the concern felt by hon. Members regardless of their opinion on the age of consent, the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth, announced on 22 June that I had set up a review group to look into abuse of trust. The group's first meeting will be on 30 July and it will report by the end of the year--hopefully, earlier.
The review will concern both young men and young women, and in a non-discriminatory way. We will take account of the group's decision on whether legislation is necessary. I assure hon. Members that there will be no delay. I have asked the working group to deal with
abuse of trust as its first priority and to come up with proposals as quickly as possible. Any right hon. or hon. Members on either side of the House who wants to meet my officials to discuss the matter should write to me, and I will ensure that arrangements are made as quickly as possible. Precisely because the matter is complex, it is to the advantage of the House that we proceed by consensus, if possible.
Mr. Dalyell:
On a Scottish point, can my right hon. Friend say whether, since a reserved power is concerned, the review group will also cover considerations of Scottish law?
Mr. Straw:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that excellent question, and I wish that I immediately knew the answer. I am being given a variety of advice by my hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench, and I will try to give him definitive advice, hopefully before the end of the debate.
The position of young people in residential settings is to be a particular concern of the review group, as those young people have least recourse to outside help and advice. The review will consider the protection needed by both young men and young women, on the basis that both sexes should be treated equally.
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