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'or certificate under paragraph 9 of Schedule 12 to that Act (transitional provisions);
( ) any certificate issued by the Lord Justice General in relation to the prisoner under section 16(2) of the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Act 1997 or paragraph 6 of Schedule 6 to the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 (transitional provisions);
( ) any order made in relation to the prisoner under section 2 of the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 (duty to release designated life prisoners);'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord): With this, it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment No. 4.
Mr. Ingram: The amendments are technical, and I hope that I will not need to expound on them at any great length, but I am prepared to do so if hon. Members want to have a debate.
Amendment No. 3 amends paragraph 6. The present effect of the paragraph is that the commissioners must have regard to different information from that set out in clause 7 when they are considering the release of life prisoners transferred to Northern Ireland from Great Britain. In such circumstances, the commissioners must have regard to any direction of the Parole Board for the release of a discretionary life prisoner, any other information that the Secretary of State submits, such as information about the tariff of a mandatory life prisoner--[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The general buzz of conversation is making it difficult to hear the Minister. I would be grateful if hon. Members would listen to him. [Interruption.]
Mr. Ingram: I thought that I heard someone saying, "Thank goodness for that," because it was better not to be able to hear me. I was about to say that the commissioners must have regard to that extra information as well as to their previous decisions. Amendment No. 3 simply provides the equivalent Scottish provisions to those already referred to in paragraph 6 for England and Wales. That means that the commissioners must have regard to the same sort of information in respect of life prisoners transferred from Scotland to Northern Ireland as for those transferred from England and Wales to Northern Ireland. That is logical and fair and I commend the amendment to the House. Amendment No. 4 amends clause 12(4), which is an interpretation provision providing that references in the Bill to a sentence of imprisonment for life include references to a sentence of detention at the Secretary of State's pleasure. Amendment No. 4 simply adds the equivalent provision for Scotland. Amendment agreed to. Amendment made: No. 4, in page 13, line 47, at end insert
'or detention for life or without limit of time under section 205(2) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995.'.--[Mr. Ingram.]
Order for Third Reading read.
6.53 pm
Marjorie Mowlam: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The debate in Committee and on Report clearly showed the genuine concerns of many right hon. and hon. Members about the operation of the scheme. Before the Bill was published, I had meetings with representatives of several parties to discuss issues raised by the Bill. Those discussions were helpful to me and, I hope, to those whom I met.
Many right hon. and hon. Members tabled amendments that were considered in Committee and on Report. In each case, our careful consideration was on the basis that any amendments must be fully consistent with the Good Friday agreement, which was endorsed by 71 per cent. of the people of Northern Ireland. We cannot and should not rewrite that agreement, but when points have been made that are helpful and could improve the terms of the Bill, we have certainly taken them on board.
Tonight, we considered on Report a Government amendment that was suggested by the right hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble), who expressed the hope that the legal terms of the Bill might be able to reflect more of the language that the Prime Minister used in his speech at Balmoral on 14 May. I accepted what the right hon. Gentleman said and tabled the amendment. I also tabled a Government amendment in response to arguments that he made on Second Reading about the operation of clause 8. I accepted those arguments and I believe that the Bill has been improved as a consequence of his contribution.
The right hon. Member for Upper Bann said:
I also accepted amendments tabled by members of other parties. For example, Lord Alderdice asked for the Bill to allow victims to ask for information about releases, and the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis) spoke on that issue on Second Reading. We added a new clause in Committee to address their concerns.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) spoke in favour of an amendment to require that a lawyer appointed to the sentence review body should have a United Kingdom qualification, and of another to require the procedure for varying the two-year cut-off period to be subject to affirmative resolution. Again, we accepted those amendments on the basis that they improved the Bill and were consistent with the agreement.
Under the Bill, I am given powers to say which organisations have not established, or are not maintaining, complete and unequivocal ceasefires. With the agreement of the House, I can move forward or back the two-year cut-off date. I also have powers to suspend the scheme entirely. Hon. Members have asked about the circumstances in which I might use those powers. As I said, I cannot prejudge such decisions now, but I shall certainly face them squarely in the future.
In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) asked about the position of prisoners who allege that they have been the subject of miscarriages of justice. As the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram), said, the matter is not covered by the Bill; he has written a letter today covering the other matters that were raised, and a copy has been placed in the Library.
In Committee, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean) asked whether the Bill gave adequate protection to sensitive material. Given the sensitivity of security information and the requirement to protect individuals, that is an important matter, and my hon. Friend the Minister of State undertook to reflect on it. Having considered the issue, I can assure the House that there is no doubt that the requirement in clause 11 for the commissioners to give reasons is qualified by paragraph 5(1)(e) of schedule 2 and that a rule made under the schedule will give protection to sensitive information such as that to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.
Much of our debate has been dominated by assertions that the Bill failed to reflect commitments given by the Government in advance of the referendum on 22 May. As I have said repeatedly, there is not a single shred of truth in that accusation.
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in the House yesterday, we have done
Mr. Andrew MacKay (Bracknell):
From my time as the parliamentary private secretary to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in the 1980s through to my present responsibilities as shadow Secretary of State and official Opposition spokesman, I have shared the view of the Secretary of State that there should, wherever possible, be a bipartisan approach to matters concerning Northern Ireland. That is in the interests both of the Province, and of a lasting settlement.
I hope that the House will agree, however, that no Opposition can give a blank cheque to a Government. Certainly, when we were in government, the Opposition did not give us a blank cheque. The House will recall the number of occasions on which the Opposition voted against or failed to support the prevention of terrorism Act. In my view, that was regrettable, and it damaged the peace process at that time.
I do not lightly advise my colleagues to vote against Third Reading. In so doing, therefore, I want to stress to the Secretary of State in particular, and the House in general, that we wish wherever possible to support the Government, and to continue the bipartisan policy. She has that assurance from me across the Floor of the House. Our voting against what we believe to be a fatally flawed Bill tonight will in no way stop our supporting the Government in their search for a lasting settlement.
I want to explain why we believe the Bill to be fundamentally flawed. We have one objection to it, and one objection only. However, it is a fundamental objection that goes to the root of the legislation. As drafted, and without the amendment that I unsuccessfully moved on Monday, the Secretary of State and her successors have only to "take into account" whether
paramilitary organisations are decommissioning. In the Bill's words, with which I do not quarrel, the Secretary of State should "take into account" whether they are "co-operating" with the decommissioning commission. That means that prisoners could be released without that co-operation. To put it at its worst--I hope, pray and believe that this would not happen under the present Secretary of State, but it could happen under the Bill--every terrorist prisoner could be released in Northern Ireland without one single gun being decommissioned, and not one ounce of Semtex being handed in.
"We must take the Stormont agreement as a whole, and should not pick and choose."--[Official Report, 16 June 1998; Vol. 313, c. 1096-97.]
That is right. If we cherry-picked and wrote extra provisions into the Bill that were not in the agreement, we would be departing from that agreement and would lose all moral authority to hold others fully to the commitments that they have made.
"precisely what we said we would do."--[Official Report, 17 June 1998; Vol. 314, c. 363.]
That being so, I want to express my disappointment that the bipartisan approach that has served the process so well for many years may be in doubt tonight. I hope that it will not be ended. As an Opposition, we were always determined to ensure that the search for peace in Northern Ireland was not made even more difficult by arguments and by confusing signals being sent across the Floor of the House. I know how much the previous Government valued the stance that we took, as I did theirs. I am sorry if that approach is on the way out, as we have been constructive and open in our approach to the Bill, particularly on proposals that enhance and improve the Bill within the terms of the Good Friday agreement.
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