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Mr. Beith: I do not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman's very good speech but, for the record, perhaps it should be made clear tha,t when Lord Cullen said that the alternative to dismantling was banning, he was talking about banning the individual possession of handguns, not necessarily excluding their use in clubs.
Mr. Barnes: I grant that point. There are different methods by which banning can be engaged, and the end position, which is still compatible with what Lord Cullen says, would be a total ban.
Mr. Dalyell: A minute ago, the figure of the Chancellor of the Exchequer swooped into the Chamber.
Mr. Terry Lewis (Worsley): Waddled.
Mr. Dalyell: My hon. Friend says "waddled", but I am sure that "swooped" is a better description of the movement of a Chancellor of the Exchequer.
That prompts me to ask a question, because I am exceedingly curious. In the past few weeks, has no Treasury official visited the Home Office and said, "Look here, your Home Secretary is introducing a Bill. We wonder what the costs of all this will be"? During times of Labour government at least, any movement by another Department that would lead to substantial--or insubstantial--costs immediately attracts the attention of the all-seeing Treasury.
I ask the Home Secretary this question. When the Treasury officials have descended on the Home Office or summoned his officials and said, "Look here, Mr. Secretary of State, exactly what are you involving us in? What are the likely costs, and when, of the measures you propose?" I should like to know what answer was given, because some answer may have been given.
I am in a similar position to the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill)--I do not know. A figure of £300 million has been given. The figure that I was given by a noble Lord--not of my political persuasion, but one who knows about guns--is vastly more than £300 million. What has the Home Secretary said to the Treasury?
Mr. Henderson:
I do not wish to detain the House more than necessary, as it appears capable of detaining itself tonight, but I must respond to points that have been made from both sides of the House.
I am firmly of the view, and have been since my mind became concentrated on the issue of pistols after the horror of Dunblane, that it would be almost impossible to prevent leakage, given the ingenuity of evil people and criminals, if one allowed pistols to be in circulation.
When presenting its evidence to Cullen, the Labour party said that its collective instinct was, broadly, the instinct that I expressed as an individual, but there was a caveat to the effect that, if a safe method could be found of continuing to allow the ownership and use of pistols, that option should be examined and might lead to a separate conclusion. I was prepared to consider possible alternatives. As a keen sportsmen, I do not like people not to take part in a sport that they want to participate in, but in Committee I added a proviso: provided that that sport does not endanger other people.
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There have been arguments in favour of another way of protecting the sport and, at the same time, of meeting the fears of the public and of the vast majority of Members of this House who support either the Government's position or our position. Can these guns be dismantled so as to render them safe? I have looked into that. Regardless of what the experts say, it seems only common sense to me that keeping track of which bit of which gun was in which location in what circumstances--and who was looking after it--would present a bureaucratic nightmare and would stretch the abilities of even the most intelligent drafter of legislation to breaking point.
We do, however, have expert opinion as well. The Minister of State in Committee and the Home Secretary on his Second Reading both intimated that the Government's forensic experts have stated that there are severe problems with dismantling. The guns would be damaged and would thus be useless for sport; moreover, because of the damage, they might be rendered more dangerous and unpredictable. Lord Cullen recognised that. The British Shooting Sports Council drew Cullen's attention, on page 125 of the report, to the evidence given to the Home Affairs Committee by Jim Sharples, chief constable of Merseyside and president of the Association of Chief Police Officers. He said that he believed that there could be problems with dismantling guns. He said:
The BSSC has in a way undermined its own arguments. Having lost the argument on pistol use, it now argues that dismantling can be effective--
Mr. Frank Cook:
If my hon. Friend had attended the demonstration to which I understand that he was invited yesterday evening, he would have seen a range of .22 weapons of various types dismantled in seconds, as they regularly are for cleaning, and reassembled in seconds without any problems at all. So my hon. Friend's argument is spurious. What is more, illegal guns can be obtained more easily than legal ones, and can be bought more cheaply. So these arguments do not stand up when it comes to protecting the population and avoiding a repetition of Dunblane.
Mr. Henderson:
I do not know a lot about guns, but I have seen them being dismantled. I took the trouble to ask the Metropolitan police to show me guns used by the military, the police and gun clubs. They showed me the extent to which they can be dismantled, the extent to which parts are interchangeable, and how a clever engineer can easily adapt one piece of equipment to another--especially if he is criminally minded. The Metropolitan police armourers regularly make replacement parts for guns, and they are of the view that dismantling is not a practical solution.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for intervening and giving me the chance to tell the House what I have seen for myself. If nothing else, what I have seen has convinced me of the hopelessness of the dismantling solution.
I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I was able to catch your eye, but I must reluctantly conclude that I cannot support the amendments.
Mr. Howard:
The debate has been wide ranging and has covered various aspects of dismantling. We heard, as we have heard throughout the day, a series of cogent speeches.
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The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) accused us of ignoring the recommendations in Lord Cullen's report. The report contained 23 recommendations, and we have accepted every one of them. Lord Cullen also made suggestions--not recommendations--concerning the possession and ownership of handguns. In relation to those suggestions, the Government have taken the view that we can meet his objectives through a different route. As we have accepted all 23 of Lord Cullen's recommendations, I do not think that it can seriously be contended that we have ignored his report.
Mr. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon):
Does the Home Secretary accept that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) said, many people who use guns felt that they had been unfairly treated? Although the Government may have accepted the recommendations, they were not debated. The Government presented their conclusions before any of us had a chance to read the report and before the people who were affected by them had the chance to contribute to the debate. That is the source of most of the irritation: people feel that the debate has not been fairly and responsibly handled.
Mr. Howard:
That complaint comes ill from a party which supported a complete ban on handguns. It is all very well for individual Members to say that they did not vote for it, but their party did and their complaint does not lie well against that background.
The subject of amendments Nos. 58 and 63--the dismantling of guns--was explored during the Second Reading debate and by the Committee of the whole House. I will repeat why the Government have not felt able to go down that route. I accept at the outset that it is a matter of judgment and that it is not possible to prove conclusively that one argument is right and one argument is wrong, and I understand why some of my right hon. and hon. Friends and some Opposition Members reach a different judgment from that reached by the Government.
Many handguns, it is true, could be dismantled in some way, but there are practical problems with that approach. They have been identified by the Forensic Science Service, reinforced by the police, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) said in his contribution, and they must be taken seriously. In the light of those practical objections, and taking into account the advice of the Forensic Science Service, we do not believe that disassembly would provide guaranteed assurance against the possible misuse of a pistol by a determined individual.
For example, some people will possess more than one set of barrel and slide components for their pistol, or will possess components that will allow the calibre of the weapon to be converted by the simple substitution of components. It would be impossible to be certain that a person could not still possess a complete weapon at home by keeping such an illicit spare. Indeed, the frames of some pistols are specially made so that the owner can purchase a comprehensive range of barrels of different lengths and cartridge chamberings, which can be simply substituted and fitted at the will of the user. That could again lead to the situation where a person would be in possession of a complete firearm although appearing to comply with club regulations.
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"They could be damaged very easily",
and went on to outline other problems that could arise.
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